DE Run groups
07-26-2004, 02:20 PM
#31
Three Wheelin'
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Max, I think this perception that it is "unsafe" for an experienced driver and a novice driver share the same track space is a joke. I run occasionally with a group in the South East called Chin Motorsports. They have a open track format all afternoon of their events with everyone allowed on the track. It runs very well and is very safe. Some of the best learning experiences you will have will be when you are out on the track following a more experienced driver getting to see how they do it.
07-26-2004, 02:45 PM
#32
Race Director
Originally Posted by carreracup21
Max, I think this perception that it is "unsafe" for an experienced driver and a novice driver share the same track space is a joke.
ccup21:
I run occasionally with a group in the South East called Chin Motorsports. They have a open track format all afternoon of their events with everyone allowed on the track. It runs very well and is very safe. Some of the best learning experiences you will have will be when you are out on the track following a more experienced driver getting to see how they do it.
I run occasionally with a group in the South East called Chin Motorsports. They have a open track format all afternoon of their events with everyone allowed on the track. It runs very well and is very safe. Some of the best learning experiences you will have will be when you are out on the track following a more experienced driver getting to see how they do it.
I have a suggestion for you, CarreraCup21: go out an get yourself a 914 or 944 - you can probably get one that's capable of track duty for around $5k. Then go do a couple of DE's with said car, and I am sure it will be an eye-opening experience for you. A friend of mine is doing that very thing: he drove his 996TT for a season, and since then, has purchased a 924S that he will built into an autox/DE car.
Confusious once say, "Learn to drive a slow car fast."
-Zoltan.
07-26-2004, 03:18 PM
#33
It seems that we have seen a lot of posts recently about traffic issues and trains over the past several weeks. As far as my feeble mind can determine, there's only 2 ways a train can happen:
1) A driver is going so slow through a set of turns that many cars catch him before the next passing zone. An example of this might happen at Mid-Ohio in the madness complex.
2) A driver is clueless of the cars behind him and cars stack up before he looks in his mirror again. Alternatively, maybe he thinks he's faster than the train. Regardless of the reason, we are talking about bad traffic management skills.
Now... let's look at the run groups...
In black/red, we figure drivers should be very clued in on what's happening behind them. We expect that a driver should have excellent traffic management skills as a prerequisite of being in the group.
In green, we expect drivers to not be totally attentive to what is going on behind them, and we forgive a driver who might not look in their mirror for a couple of passing zones.
Between those groups, there is a sliding scale of what we should expect. Do we expect drivers in yellow to be as inattentive as the ones in green? An even better question is, do we expect drivers in white to have as good of skills as those in black? If not, why not? How good do we expect them to be?
Let me list some of the things that I've seen from "traffic challenged" drivers:
1) Not fully attentive to the mirrors
2) Thinks they are faster than the car(s) behind them
3) This is the big one: does not like to use all of the available passing zones. For example, some drivers aren't comfortable using the passing zone between the carousel and the downhill left at the Glen. Nor are they comfortable using the laces. When that happens, all of a sudden a lot of passing zones disappeared.
4) Lets only one car in a train pass in each passing zone. This is typically because the driver gives a pass signal and also hits the throttle at the same time.
Now, should we expect a white run group driver to not be guilty of any of the above? I don't know. I think that's highly dependent on each region and what they consider the qualifications of their groups to be. However, let's say that we do find someone guilty of that - what's the remedy? Is the person moved down to an instructed group? Are they just told to pay more attention?
As RedlineMan said in a different thread, I think we may just be victims of our own success. The red/black run groups have gotten so packed with drivers that we don't have available slots to move people into those groups. So, we have some people in white that have lots of experience and other people who are fairly new to the group. I'm willing to bet that those two groups of people have VERY different expectations of what skills a driver should have to be in that run group.
1) A driver is going so slow through a set of turns that many cars catch him before the next passing zone. An example of this might happen at Mid-Ohio in the madness complex.
2) A driver is clueless of the cars behind him and cars stack up before he looks in his mirror again. Alternatively, maybe he thinks he's faster than the train. Regardless of the reason, we are talking about bad traffic management skills.
Now... let's look at the run groups...
In black/red, we figure drivers should be very clued in on what's happening behind them. We expect that a driver should have excellent traffic management skills as a prerequisite of being in the group.
In green, we expect drivers to not be totally attentive to what is going on behind them, and we forgive a driver who might not look in their mirror for a couple of passing zones.
Between those groups, there is a sliding scale of what we should expect. Do we expect drivers in yellow to be as inattentive as the ones in green? An even better question is, do we expect drivers in white to have as good of skills as those in black? If not, why not? How good do we expect them to be?
Let me list some of the things that I've seen from "traffic challenged" drivers:
1) Not fully attentive to the mirrors
2) Thinks they are faster than the car(s) behind them
3) This is the big one: does not like to use all of the available passing zones. For example, some drivers aren't comfortable using the passing zone between the carousel and the downhill left at the Glen. Nor are they comfortable using the laces. When that happens, all of a sudden a lot of passing zones disappeared.
4) Lets only one car in a train pass in each passing zone. This is typically because the driver gives a pass signal and also hits the throttle at the same time.
Now, should we expect a white run group driver to not be guilty of any of the above? I don't know. I think that's highly dependent on each region and what they consider the qualifications of their groups to be. However, let's say that we do find someone guilty of that - what's the remedy? Is the person moved down to an instructed group? Are they just told to pay more attention?
As RedlineMan said in a different thread, I think we may just be victims of our own success. The red/black run groups have gotten so packed with drivers that we don't have available slots to move people into those groups. So, we have some people in white that have lots of experience and other people who are fairly new to the group. I'm willing to bet that those two groups of people have VERY different expectations of what skills a driver should have to be in that run group.
07-26-2004, 03:20 PM
#34
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Z-man, I think my times are pretty fast for a car in my class and relative to a well driven 996TT, my 964 Cup is slow. That being said, I bet you are right. I would likely have a blast in a 944. Down here they have a 944 spec class in NASA and I think it looks like a great way to start racing. Either that or a spec miata which also looks very fun.
I guess what you are saying is: Moving up in run group is great for the lower tier guys, but not so good for everyone else in the higher groups. Also it's not fair for someone to just buy a fast car and get moved up before they have paid their dues. Drivers who can get the most out of their car should be rewarded by a higher run group placement irrespective of how fast they may be going.
Hey, I can relate to this reasoning. I hear you and I think some of it makes sense. In the Viper Club event, I was like you. I was the lower powered car trying to find my way amongst all that muscle. A viper has @ 500 hp and well driven they are damn fast. Even though I was out there with some drivers who were likely less experienced and just doing fast times because their car was over-powered, I still found the lap time method better. I felt like hey I'm hanging with these guys and they all have machines that could crush me. It's probably just like you feel.
I guess what you are saying is: Moving up in run group is great for the lower tier guys, but not so good for everyone else in the higher groups. Also it's not fair for someone to just buy a fast car and get moved up before they have paid their dues. Drivers who can get the most out of their car should be rewarded by a higher run group placement irrespective of how fast they may be going.
Hey, I can relate to this reasoning. I hear you and I think some of it makes sense. In the Viper Club event, I was like you. I was the lower powered car trying to find my way amongst all that muscle. A viper has @ 500 hp and well driven they are damn fast. Even though I was out there with some drivers who were likely less experienced and just doing fast times because their car was over-powered, I still found the lap time method better. I felt like hey I'm hanging with these guys and they all have machines that could crush me. It's probably just like you feel.
07-26-2004, 03:23 PM
#35
Originally Posted by Matt
Trains aren't caused by slow cars, they're caused by drivers who are unaware, inconsiderate, or whose egos can't handle being passed.
, I can say that ego is rarely the reason that a pass signal isn't given. The way I figure, whenever I give a pass signal, it's because the other guy has a better car. Whenever I pass someone, it's because I'm a better driver. 
07-26-2004, 06:22 PM
#36
Race Director
Ok guys here is my take.
Fristly here in Arizona we don't have group by colors so red black. They make no sence. In fact another org run open track DE days where Red is noice and green is advanced.
Anyway we typically have 2 types of DE's
Type 1 - Run by NASA, ASRA, or Pro Autosports
There are 2-3 "DE" groups ans 2-3 Race groups. The race groups are just that "race groups" were there is proper wheel to wheel racing.
The DE groups consist of a School group where there is a proper class room groud school along with instructors for each student. Group 2 is often a Novice group where instructors are recommended. Driver's here often have instructors, but not always. Most of these guys have less track timem but some have quite a bit and choose to run here. Passing rules are often strict such that pass is only on straights with point bys.
The third groups is aways the advanced group. Here are the instructors and other faster drivers. Depending on the group there is passing on straights only or anywhere with caution. Trains don't form here mostly because of the open passing rules and because guys know the rules here and run accordingly.
I have seen trains develop in student group most often. Usally since there is a complete novice on the track. This person is often busy enough with just driving and not looking for people overtaking. Novice run groups tend work a little better, but trains can develop. If I know I have a student witha fast car I try to grid early to get less traffic so we can get a few clear runs. Even so I remember in my DE's to be very happy if I ever go 3 clean laps with zero traffic.
Second type Event are the PCA events.
Typically there are 4-5 groups. Often times Two idential "ground school" groups. One intermediate group and one instructor group. If there is enough cars sometimes a "race car" group. In the race car group are typically race cars only. Open passing is allowed, but no racing occurs.
The instructor group is obviously the instructors. Novice groups are those were students require or are strongly advised to have instructorts. Intermediates are typically those that can handle themselves safely on the track. We have an experience database of drivers to figure group placement, but sometimes group placement depends on group size. We also try to keep the groups a similar. Two student groups are often used due to a 2 to 1 student instrutor ratio.
For most part we don't have issues with guys complaining about being in one group or another. I believe that if possible it would be good to break-up the two student groups into a high hp group and a lower hp group just ot alievate traffic.
That said when you get into the instructor or race group drivers tend to not be concerned with how fast/slow the car in front is. Driver's of 914's watch their mirrors and the faster drivers know the slower ones will be courtious in letting them by when it is safe.
So.
Really groups need to be defined first by exeperience level. Not speed. Then once you have an expericne level break out you can group by hp.
How many intermediate groups do most of you guys run?
Seems to me that between a novice wet behind the ears student and an instructor level driver is maybe 1 group (2 max). I tend to think racers need their own group beyond instuctor level. Not so much due to speed, but racers are much more comfortable 3" off some guys bumper than other who have not raced before even if they are instructors.
So I'd go with these groups Assuming 5 run groups
1) Novice - First track experience or less than 4-5 days Instructors required. Passing only on instructor signals
2) Intermediate - 3 or more track days. Instructors recommended - comfortable with basics, uses instuctors to gain speed and confience
3) Advanced - Driver's safe on the track with solid lines and good situational awareness. May call on instructors if they want to learn advanced techniques.
4) Instructors
5) Club Racers
For 4 run groups determine groups by numbers of drivers.
For example if you are heavy in race cars, with few novices do the following
Grp 1) Novice, Intermedate
Grp 2) Advanced
Grp 3) Instructors
Grp 4) Racers
If you are heavy in novices with few racers or instructors
Grp 1) Novice low hp
Grp 2) Novoce high hp
Grp 3) Intermediate/Advanced
Grp 4) Instructor/ Racer
If you are have lots of intermediate and advanced drivers
Grp 1) Novice
Grp 2) intermediate
Grp 3) Advanced
Grp 4) Instuctors/ Racer
If you have only 3 groups
Grp 1) Novice, intermediate
Grp 2) Advanced
Grp 3) Instructor / Racer
If you have 2 groups
Grp 1) Novice, Intermediate
Grp 2) Advance / Instructor
So I think it is better to apply a label to a driver's status. Then form run groups based on the numbers in each status area so that you don't have too many car in any group.
Fristly here in Arizona we don't have group by colors so red black. They make no sence. In fact another org run open track DE days where Red is noice and green is advanced.
Anyway we typically have 2 types of DE's
Type 1 - Run by NASA, ASRA, or Pro Autosports
There are 2-3 "DE" groups ans 2-3 Race groups. The race groups are just that "race groups" were there is proper wheel to wheel racing.
The DE groups consist of a School group where there is a proper class room groud school along with instructors for each student. Group 2 is often a Novice group where instructors are recommended. Driver's here often have instructors, but not always. Most of these guys have less track timem but some have quite a bit and choose to run here. Passing rules are often strict such that pass is only on straights with point bys.
The third groups is aways the advanced group. Here are the instructors and other faster drivers. Depending on the group there is passing on straights only or anywhere with caution. Trains don't form here mostly because of the open passing rules and because guys know the rules here and run accordingly.
I have seen trains develop in student group most often. Usally since there is a complete novice on the track. This person is often busy enough with just driving and not looking for people overtaking. Novice run groups tend work a little better, but trains can develop. If I know I have a student witha fast car I try to grid early to get less traffic so we can get a few clear runs. Even so I remember in my DE's to be very happy if I ever go 3 clean laps with zero traffic.
Second type Event are the PCA events.
Typically there are 4-5 groups. Often times Two idential "ground school" groups. One intermediate group and one instructor group. If there is enough cars sometimes a "race car" group. In the race car group are typically race cars only. Open passing is allowed, but no racing occurs.
The instructor group is obviously the instructors. Novice groups are those were students require or are strongly advised to have instructorts. Intermediates are typically those that can handle themselves safely on the track. We have an experience database of drivers to figure group placement, but sometimes group placement depends on group size. We also try to keep the groups a similar. Two student groups are often used due to a 2 to 1 student instrutor ratio.
For most part we don't have issues with guys complaining about being in one group or another. I believe that if possible it would be good to break-up the two student groups into a high hp group and a lower hp group just ot alievate traffic.
That said when you get into the instructor or race group drivers tend to not be concerned with how fast/slow the car in front is. Driver's of 914's watch their mirrors and the faster drivers know the slower ones will be courtious in letting them by when it is safe.
So.
Really groups need to be defined first by exeperience level. Not speed. Then once you have an expericne level break out you can group by hp.
How many intermediate groups do most of you guys run?
Seems to me that between a novice wet behind the ears student and an instructor level driver is maybe 1 group (2 max). I tend to think racers need their own group beyond instuctor level. Not so much due to speed, but racers are much more comfortable 3" off some guys bumper than other who have not raced before even if they are instructors.
So I'd go with these groups Assuming 5 run groups
1) Novice - First track experience or less than 4-5 days Instructors required. Passing only on instructor signals
2) Intermediate - 3 or more track days. Instructors recommended - comfortable with basics, uses instuctors to gain speed and confience
3) Advanced - Driver's safe on the track with solid lines and good situational awareness. May call on instructors if they want to learn advanced techniques.
4) Instructors
5) Club Racers
For 4 run groups determine groups by numbers of drivers.
For example if you are heavy in race cars, with few novices do the following
Grp 1) Novice, Intermedate
Grp 2) Advanced
Grp 3) Instructors
Grp 4) Racers
If you are heavy in novices with few racers or instructors
Grp 1) Novice low hp
Grp 2) Novoce high hp
Grp 3) Intermediate/Advanced
Grp 4) Instructor/ Racer
If you are have lots of intermediate and advanced drivers
Grp 1) Novice
Grp 2) intermediate
Grp 3) Advanced
Grp 4) Instuctors/ Racer
If you have only 3 groups
Grp 1) Novice, intermediate
Grp 2) Advanced
Grp 3) Instructor / Racer
If you have 2 groups
Grp 1) Novice, Intermediate
Grp 2) Advance / Instructor
So I think it is better to apply a label to a driver's status. Then form run groups based on the numbers in each status area so that you don't have too many car in any group.
07-26-2004, 06:26 PM
#37
Race Director
On another note...
I have shared the track with a GT3RS that was 20 seconds per lap faster than me allong with 10 cup cars when I was in my little 131 rwhp 944. I can be done safely. Funny thing was that they were never a problem. If they caught me on straight they blew by. In corner? I waited to safe point and pointed them by. Not that may guys caught me in the corners however.
I have shared the track with a GT3RS that was 20 seconds per lap faster than me allong with 10 cup cars when I was in my little 131 rwhp 944. I can be done safely. Funny thing was that they were never a problem. If they caught me on straight they blew by. In corner? I waited to safe point and pointed them by. Not that may guys caught me in the corners however.
07-26-2004, 09:06 PM
#38
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Hey Guys;
A bit late to the show here, but some of us were actually driving this weekend instead of doing all this bullshirting!
So Brian... what was your excuse? An empty name on an attendees list. No #871? Ego go a little soft this weekend?
Anyway, As Brian did paraphrase, the upward pressure from below that I mentioned in my thread has made things quite variable. Driving communally means that everyone has to do their part. If you're slow, embrace that reality and stay the hell outta the way or move down. If you drive a Cup Car or something similarly motivated, don't gripe. You bought the package. Run according to the community you are in or go someplace where you fit.
If groups want to have lapping days or timing criteria, that is great. If you need that, then do it. Don't look for it to fly in PCA. Won't happen. Perhaps it would be helpful for those people to remember that EVERY aspect of a DE weekend is a learning experience. I use traffic to help my students build the peripheral & subconscious driving skills they will need to move ahead. It doesn't get easier up here in Red, we're just (theoretically) better at it from experience!
Finally, I think that the unenviable position of Chief Steward must be staffed by someone willing to make the tough decisions. If a person, no matter how senior, is screwing up, they have to be called on the carpet. Pecking orders and seniority have to take a back seat to performance because everyone's fun and safety is at stake.
Combining groups can be tricky. It always happens at the end of an event. Experienced advanced drivers can handle it no matter their group, but newby intermediates can find it daunting. I can always spot some of the fresher Black runners getting a real education when Black and Red are combined. Some of them do quite well and would fit in pretty well. Others kind of get run over. Always makes for interesting sessions when you are now in the role of the slow guy on the hunt for new victims!
I was almost the "slowest" guy in Red this weekend. I certainly had the least Oooomph. 145HP and 105mph trap speeds don't do much to keep one ahead of a pack of Cup Cars - or much of anything else - and even my lofty skills can't keep a bunch of them at bay in the corners either.
What makes it work is they know they will get a fair deal. They know I will give it up and give them the late pass, or that the signal will come at turn in, or the apex at the latest. If they can't stand this, the best DE deal that is available, they can go elsewhere.
If anyone wants to know what it's like, they can watch my films from this weekend. Busy would be one word!
A bit late to the show here, but some of us were actually driving this weekend instead of doing all this bullshirting!
So Brian... what was your excuse? An empty name on an attendees list. No #871? Ego go a little soft this weekend?
Anyway, As Brian did paraphrase, the upward pressure from below that I mentioned in my thread has made things quite variable. Driving communally means that everyone has to do their part. If you're slow, embrace that reality and stay the hell outta the way or move down. If you drive a Cup Car or something similarly motivated, don't gripe. You bought the package. Run according to the community you are in or go someplace where you fit.
If groups want to have lapping days or timing criteria, that is great. If you need that, then do it. Don't look for it to fly in PCA. Won't happen. Perhaps it would be helpful for those people to remember that EVERY aspect of a DE weekend is a learning experience. I use traffic to help my students build the peripheral & subconscious driving skills they will need to move ahead. It doesn't get easier up here in Red, we're just (theoretically) better at it from experience!
Finally, I think that the unenviable position of Chief Steward must be staffed by someone willing to make the tough decisions. If a person, no matter how senior, is screwing up, they have to be called on the carpet. Pecking orders and seniority have to take a back seat to performance because everyone's fun and safety is at stake.
Combining groups can be tricky. It always happens at the end of an event. Experienced advanced drivers can handle it no matter their group, but newby intermediates can find it daunting. I can always spot some of the fresher Black runners getting a real education when Black and Red are combined. Some of them do quite well and would fit in pretty well. Others kind of get run over. Always makes for interesting sessions when you are now in the role of the slow guy on the hunt for new victims!
I was almost the "slowest" guy in Red this weekend. I certainly had the least Oooomph. 145HP and 105mph trap speeds don't do much to keep one ahead of a pack of Cup Cars - or much of anything else - and even my lofty skills can't keep a bunch of them at bay in the corners either.
What makes it work is they know they will get a fair deal. They know I will give it up and give them the late pass, or that the signal will come at turn in, or the apex at the latest. If they can't stand this, the best DE deal that is available, they can go elsewhere.If anyone wants to know what it's like, they can watch my films from this weekend. Busy would be one word!
07-26-2004, 10:12 PM
#39
Three Wheelin'
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Redlineman, I think you have pretty well summed up the answer to my original question.
Fortunately, there are allot of great alternatives other than PCA DE for drivers who like a different type of driving school. I don't think it's a one size fits all deal. I thought it might be interesting to discuss some of the variations out there that seem to work pretty well. I see the dynamic now though, and why it would never fly in the PCA world.
If groups want to have lapping days or timing criteria, that is great. If you need that, then do it. Don't look for it to fly in PCA. Won't happen.
Last edited by carreracup21; 07-26-2004 at 11:50 PM.
07-26-2004, 10:41 PM
#40
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This discussion has nothing to do with green and yellow groups. To address the hypothetical above, if an instructor in a 914-6 is running laps similar to the green or yellow, he shouldn't be an instructor.
This discussion is about more experienced drivers in higher groups. Timing is not an option at PCA events as discussed. However event officials can and should use discretion. In higher groups where the experience is there, itis no fun to be passed all the time or to have to pass all the time.
Having cars on track with different lap times is not dangerous if the skill level is present. This has been proven time and time again at other venues where very diverse vehicles, all driven by experienced drivers co-exist safely.
I suppose it is fair to say that the idea that the PCA system guarantees safety with its division of run groups has not been bourne out considering the climbing rate of incidents in the green run groups of some regions.
Don't want to upset y'all but thats what I see.
This discussion is about more experienced drivers in higher groups. Timing is not an option at PCA events as discussed. However event officials can and should use discretion. In higher groups where the experience is there, itis no fun to be passed all the time or to have to pass all the time.
Having cars on track with different lap times is not dangerous if the skill level is present. This has been proven time and time again at other venues where very diverse vehicles, all driven by experienced drivers co-exist safely.
I suppose it is fair to say that the idea that the PCA system guarantees safety with its division of run groups has not been bourne out considering the climbing rate of incidents in the green run groups of some regions.
Don't want to upset y'all but thats what I see.
07-27-2004, 01:06 AM
#41
Originally Posted by RedlineMan
A bit late to the show here, but some of us were actually driving this weekend instead of doing all this bullshirting!
So Brian... what was your excuse? An empty name on an attendees list. No #871? Ego go a little soft this weekend?
So Brian... what was your excuse? An empty name on an attendees list. No #871? Ego go a little soft this weekend?
Perhaps we can hook up at Lime Rock.
07-27-2004, 09:39 AM
#42
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I have been following this thread for a couple of days and have been thinking about the issue. If you ask a novice driver what he thinks you will often get the response about seperating run groups according to lap times. If you ask an advanced/experienced driver, you will often get the response about seperating run groups according to experience.
If you watch professional road course racing, you will realize that there is no need to seperate drivers based on lap times. When you have prototypes and GT cars sharing the same track, with much higher stakes, and very few incidents related to differing lap times, you'll understand the value of experience and trust.
If you watch professional road course racing, you will realize that there is no need to seperate drivers based on lap times. When you have prototypes and GT cars sharing the same track, with much higher stakes, and very few incidents related to differing lap times, you'll understand the value of experience and trust.
07-27-2004, 09:41 AM
#43
Brian, very common failure FYI. I believe the solution is to run a trans cooler on the PS circuit but not sure where they are mounted. I will find out and let You know. It was the plastic fittings that melted correct?
07-27-2004, 10:45 AM
#44
Originally Posted by Glen
Brian, very common failure FYI. I believe the solution is to run a trans cooler on the PS circuit but not sure where they are mounted. I will find out and let You know. It was the plastic fittings that melted correct?
07-27-2004, 02:14 PM
#45
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Originally Posted by RedlineMan
145HP and 105mph trap speeds don't do much to keep one ahead of a pack of Cup Cars - or much of anything else - and even my lofty skills can't keep a bunch of them at bay in the corners either. What makes it work is they know they will get a fair deal. They know I will give it up and give them the late pass, or that the signal will come at turn in, or the apex at the latest. If they can't stand this, the best DE deal that is available, they can go elsewhere.
If anyone wants to know what it's like, they can watch my films from this weekend. Busy would be one word!
What makes it work is they know they will get a fair deal. They know I will give it up and give them the late pass, or that the signal will come at turn in, or the apex at the latest. If they can't stand this, the best DE deal that is available, they can go elsewhere.If anyone wants to know what it's like, they can watch my films from this weekend. Busy would be one word!