DE Run groups
07-25-2004, 09:04 PM
#16
Here are a couple of exercises I have always used at the track that will help with the problem of getting stuck behind slower traffic, or trains. When I start to gather traffic even in the Instructor groups I begin to drive off line and try to get through the corners as quick as the car ahead who is online. Another method is to cut the track in half and make the track You are on only half as wide. in one session run the left half and then try the right half. The last exercise is to drive the marbles line. All of these allow You to be a much quicker driver , or in a much quicker car and still allow You to drive at or near the limit while slowing you down effectively. These drills also make You much more prepared to handle adversity at various tracks whether in a DE or Race environ. Just a couple of thoughts.
07-25-2004, 09:12 PM
#17
Burning Brakes
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 855
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by Karl S
I just instructed at a Viper Days event. They separated drivers into different run groups based on experience, just like PCA. However, they also had a transponder in each students car and they recorded laps times. These times were used to provide some feedback to the students but also to grid the cars within Green and Blue after the first couple of sessions. It did seem to open up things on the track as CarreraCup21 is suggesting and there were very few trains in the remaining sessions. My green student would loose concentration whenever there was someone behind her, so this was a real benefit for her.
This method was not used for the instructors run group, just the blue, green, and, I think, white groups. The only real downside I can see to this method is the additional cost and admin complications of timing the sessions and getting people gridded in the right order. Of course, there is the insurance issue, but somehow the Viper club got insurance for their event, although it may have been more expensive than what PCA pays.
Karl
This method was not used for the instructors run group, just the blue, green, and, I think, white groups. The only real downside I can see to this method is the additional cost and admin complications of timing the sessions and getting people gridded in the right order. Of course, there is the insurance issue, but somehow the Viper club got insurance for their event, although it may have been more expensive than what PCA pays.
Karl
I'm guessing you were at VIR/Viper Days last weekend. A bunch of us Z06'ers were there again this year! Their method of breaking groups up based on Experience, then gridding by " TIME" within each group... is EXCELLENT!Most of the "offs" spinning & such, were Viper drivers trying to push too hard. We saw a lot of this in the White group. It helps being at the front of the pack!
For the most part, the Viper Days make-up is mostly High Speed cars, ie. Vipers & Vettes in the majority! That may allow their system to work better than at an "OPEN" D E Event. Not sure this will work with other clubs.
I instruct with NASA, POC, and others... and find the new high powered cars with electric drivers aids can be EXCITING (risky), when driven by Novices.
A Novice in a Z06 or a Porsche TT can reach staggering speeds in a hurry.
07-25-2004, 09:15 PM
#18
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 1,335
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Brian
I think you are right about the cornering speed. In your example of a 944 and a GT3 cup each turning 2:25's at the Glen, I bet that if you let the two cars out on a 15 sec stagger, they would never come close to each other. Trust me, I used to think the run group thing was fine, but this last event really opened my eyes to a better way of doing it. I think the resistence to this idea stems mostly from the feelings that someone has "graduated" into a higher run group and doesn't want to be "banished" to a lower level. I think I am arguing for a lost cause, but I can tell you honestly it works very well.
I think you are right about the cornering speed. In your example of a 944 and a GT3 cup each turning 2:25's at the Glen, I bet that if you let the two cars out on a 15 sec stagger, they would never come close to each other. Trust me, I used to think the run group thing was fine, but this last event really opened my eyes to a better way of doing it. I think the resistence to this idea stems mostly from the feelings that someone has "graduated" into a higher run group and doesn't want to be "banished" to a lower level. I think I am arguing for a lost cause, but I can tell you honestly it works very well.
07-25-2004, 09:28 PM
#19
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 1,335
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hi Trumper,
Hey I was in your group and yes it was a blast !! I was in the white 911 and was the little under-powered car amongst all that Viper hp. Even though my cornering speeds were quicker than the Vipers and they would leave me in the straights, gridding by lap times was great !! I wish it was like that at every event. A huge improvement. My best time was 2:14.3 at VIR full which is not too shabby for a D-class 911.
Hey I was in your group and yes it was a blast !! I was in the white 911 and was the little under-powered car amongst all that Viper hp. Even though my cornering speeds were quicker than the Vipers and they would leave me in the straights, gridding by lap times was great !! I wish it was like that at every event. A huge improvement. My best time was 2:14.3 at VIR full which is not too shabby for a D-class 911.
07-25-2004, 09:30 PM
#20
Originally Posted by carreracup21
Brian
I think you are right about the cornering speed. In your example of a 944 and a GT3 cup each turning 2:25's at the Glen, I bet that if you let the two cars out on a 15 sec stagger, they would never come close to each other. Trust me, I used to think the run group thing was fine, but this last event really opened my eyes to a better way of doing it.
I think you are right about the cornering speed. In your example of a 944 and a GT3 cup each turning 2:25's at the Glen, I bet that if you let the two cars out on a 15 sec stagger, they would never come close to each other. Trust me, I used to think the run group thing was fine, but this last event really opened my eyes to a better way of doing it.
In the higher run groups, people seem to be a lot better at getting that train broken up.
07-25-2004, 09:31 PM
#21
Burning Brakes
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 855
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The Viper Days method uses both the Experience grouping, ie. Green (novice), Blue (inter-mediate),and White (advanced), then they grid within the group according to time. They do not mix the Novices in with the other groups, but after two sessons on Saturday, they did move two blue's up to white.... and 1 white down to blue.
07-25-2004, 10:01 PM
#22
I think experience should be the key because I like to be out there with people who know what they are doing. Also with experience yuou learn to recognize cars and know you're driving with and how they behave. Besides a quick pit to break the cycle, I learned to get a sense of where I was in the group. If there was someone who was hard to pass (not because they were fast
) I will try to get out in front of them. Since I recognize I am slow, I try to grid at the end of the pack. This is a little informal grouping by time. I also think with experience we tend to learn that being held up for a lap or 2 or even a session isn't the end of the world.To try to group formally is also difficult because it is arbitrary, learning curves may not be accounted for and be many reasons for slow lap times besides driving skill.
07-25-2004, 10:39 PM
#23
Burning Brakes
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 855
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by carreracup21
Hi Trumper,
Hey I was in your group and yes it was a blast !! I was in the white 911 and was the little under-powered car amongst all that Viper hp. Even though my cornering speeds were quicker than the Vipers and they would leave me in the straights, gridding by lap times was great !! I wish it was like that at every event. A huge improvement. My best time was 2:14.3 at VIR full which is not too shabby for a D-class 911.
Hey I was in your group and yes it was a blast !! I was in the white 911 and was the little under-powered car amongst all that Viper hp. Even though my cornering speeds were quicker than the Vipers and they would leave me in the straights, gridding by lap times was great !! I wish it was like that at every event. A huge improvement. My best time was 2:14.3 at VIR full which is not too shabby for a D-class 911.
Yes I remember dicing with you. I had the Silver Z06 # 111. We ran four laps or so, you leading! I would catch you on straights then you would gain a bit in the twisties... back & forth we went.Finally... I chased you down thru turns 1 & 2, passed you in the esses and we ran another lap. Then U were catching me down Hog Pen, I was sliding thru those turns, My tires were GONE!!! I pulled into pits... and you slid off... going into turn ONE. I bet your tires were Toasted too!!!
Enjoyed... hope we met again!!! Was fun running with you!
I'll be at Road Atlanta August 14th & 15th with NASA.
07-25-2004, 11:31 PM
#24
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 1,335
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Yes I remember, my tires were toast and I actually had an instructor on board with me during that session. He really helped me out with the Hog Pen, but it's always distracting when you are trying to listen, learn and drive fast all at once. If I remember correctly, that was on Sat. afternoon. Yeah, after going by you, I went into turn 1 a little hot, late downshifted and around she went. A 911 really let's you know when you screw up. I changed my tires right after that and saw my lap times go down 4 seconds. Seems like every session I went out in, there was someone that was running about the same times right in front or behind and you could really have some fun. That's what made the event so enjoyable.
Thankyou.....I enjoyed it as well and I need to get out to some NASA events also. Hope to see you out there again trumper !!
Thankyou.....I enjoyed it as well and I need to get out to some NASA events also. Hope to see you out there again trumper !!
07-26-2004, 11:15 AM
#25
Addict
Rennlist
Lifetime Member
Rennlist
Lifetime Member
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: CT
Posts: 300
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Just a few observations in no particular order -
Trains aren't caused by slow cars, they're caused by drivers who are unaware, inconsiderate, or whose egos can't handle being passed. These qualities are distributed somewhat differently according to run group - e.g., a trainmaker in black probably doesn't have the excuse of being unaware. I've seen trainmakers whose behavior borders on passive-aggressive, like that *&^$%&% who was intentionally blocking the left lane on the highway this morning.
An aware driver in a slow car needs to hold up faster cars only until the next passing zone, which in an upper run group is never far away. (disclosure - I drive a 2700+lb car with under 150hp. I had to laugh when the poster above described his D-class car as "under-powered").
If you have a fast car and you can't handle waiting until the next passing zone to pass someone, you're at the wrong event. We're not talking about lapping days, open track events or test-and-tune days here, we're talking about Driver's Ed.
Reshuffling run groups won't cure the problem of the driver who withholds passing signals, it only makes that driver someone else's problem. That driver needs to be educated (it's "Driver's Ed"), and if he/she doesn't shape up other steps need to be taken. I've often talked with drivers who've held me up, believe it or not it even happens to me in red, and that usually (but not always) takes care of the issue.
It is not a problem that we have a mix of fast and less-fast cars (except for those drivers whose pants are on fire and can't wait to the next passing zone). The problem occurs when a trainmaker doesn't do what's right, and reshuffling groups based only on speed does nothing to fix that problem - in fact it probably perpetuates it.
Enough for now. Don't even get me started on the idea of "combining" red and black. When I first heard of it a year or two ago I thought it was an awful idea, and I still do. Maybe I'll bloviate on that later.
Matt
Trains aren't caused by slow cars, they're caused by drivers who are unaware, inconsiderate, or whose egos can't handle being passed. These qualities are distributed somewhat differently according to run group - e.g., a trainmaker in black probably doesn't have the excuse of being unaware. I've seen trainmakers whose behavior borders on passive-aggressive, like that *&^$%&% who was intentionally blocking the left lane on the highway this morning.
An aware driver in a slow car needs to hold up faster cars only until the next passing zone, which in an upper run group is never far away. (disclosure - I drive a 2700+lb car with under 150hp. I had to laugh when the poster above described his D-class car as "under-powered").
If you have a fast car and you can't handle waiting until the next passing zone to pass someone, you're at the wrong event. We're not talking about lapping days, open track events or test-and-tune days here, we're talking about Driver's Ed.
Reshuffling run groups won't cure the problem of the driver who withholds passing signals, it only makes that driver someone else's problem. That driver needs to be educated (it's "Driver's Ed"), and if he/she doesn't shape up other steps need to be taken. I've often talked with drivers who've held me up, believe it or not it even happens to me in red, and that usually (but not always) takes care of the issue.
It is not a problem that we have a mix of fast and less-fast cars (except for those drivers whose pants are on fire and can't wait to the next passing zone). The problem occurs when a trainmaker doesn't do what's right, and reshuffling groups based only on speed does nothing to fix that problem - in fact it probably perpetuates it.
Enough for now. Don't even get me started on the idea of "combining" red and black. When I first heard of it a year or two ago I thought it was an awful idea, and I still do. Maybe I'll bloviate on that later.
Matt
07-26-2004, 11:19 AM
#26
Rennlist Member
Originally Posted by JackOlsen
You want your fast group guys to be able to trust that the other drivers on the track with them are going to react and behave in safe and predictable ways. They can push the limits of their abilities without having to wonder if the guy they're overtaking has ten hours on the track under his belt, or a thousand.
I have also observed that passing cars seems to be more of a badge of honor in the inexperienced groups and this is my theory as to why you see less "Pit drive-thoughs" in these groups as a means to deal with traffic.
I too am for experience based run groups.
07-26-2004, 11:44 AM
#28
Rennlist Member
"Hi Zoltan. I don't mean to start a storm here, but last time I was at a club race ( though not participating yet), they did actually grid drivers by lap times in both the practice sessions and the race."
Of course they do. That's racing.
Z-man and Jack are once again on the money.
There are plenty of drivers with fast cars who may be the fastest in green or blue group, who would get run over in black and red. A fast car can cover up alot of driver mistakes on a track. I've seen cases where drivers were fast in high HP cars, then bought a lower HP track car, and turned into a moving chicane. Sort of like golf, a $1,500 set of clubs won't turn a hacker into a Tiger, but they might mask several deficiencies in that person's game.
Of course they do. That's racing.
Z-man and Jack are once again on the money.
There are plenty of drivers with fast cars who may be the fastest in green or blue group, who would get run over in black and red. A fast car can cover up alot of driver mistakes on a track. I've seen cases where drivers were fast in high HP cars, then bought a lower HP track car, and turned into a moving chicane. Sort of like golf, a $1,500 set of clubs won't turn a hacker into a Tiger, but they might mask several deficiencies in that person's game.
07-26-2004, 12:31 PM
#29
Addict
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Indy
Posts: 1,750
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I just wanted to add the perspective of a novice with one DE (unfortunately I have been too busy to get out again). In the novice group, we had a few trains develop. I was picking up the concepts a little quicker than some (and slower than others) and I would find myself "stuck" behind someone. I know that on occasion people were a little nervous or lacking awareness on passing. I understand, I am probably no better. My instructor kept me calm and when necessary, I cooled down in the hot pits. I honestly didn't care one bit as I was enthralled in the learning experience.
One area that my faster car and faster skills did not differentiate me in my 951 from the slower guys is incident response. I "know" what I am supposed to do, but I am not experienced. We were all on the same page. I would not have felt comfortable amongst more advanced drivers in 914s, 2002s, Miatas, etc. I am not reaching the same limits that they are and I am not as sharp in my response to incident.
I will also say that my event was run impeccably (Central Indiana PCA at Putnam) and even with huge speed disparages amongst the advanced groups, little conflict resulted (as far as I could tell). My instructor was faster than many of the cars on the track when I was riding with him. He caught most everyone out there. On occasion, he was held up. He didn't sweat it, he just showed me the offline, or showed me how to not simply follow the leader and make sure you take the best line, etc. He even pitted in and this was in a sparse field of instructors.
I'll tell you this much, if I bought a Z06, Viper or 996TT tommorow, I should be in the novice group. I am still a novice, plain and simple.
Maybe it is different amongst the advanced groups though. Maybe patience is part of the education. Why do my posts always end in a conclusion of maybes?
Max
One area that my faster car and faster skills did not differentiate me in my 951 from the slower guys is incident response. I "know" what I am supposed to do, but I am not experienced. We were all on the same page. I would not have felt comfortable amongst more advanced drivers in 914s, 2002s, Miatas, etc. I am not reaching the same limits that they are and I am not as sharp in my response to incident.
I will also say that my event was run impeccably (Central Indiana PCA at Putnam) and even with huge speed disparages amongst the advanced groups, little conflict resulted (as far as I could tell). My instructor was faster than many of the cars on the track when I was riding with him. He caught most everyone out there. On occasion, he was held up. He didn't sweat it, he just showed me the offline, or showed me how to not simply follow the leader and make sure you take the best line, etc. He even pitted in and this was in a sparse field of instructors.
I'll tell you this much, if I bought a Z06, Viper or 996TT tommorow, I should be in the novice group. I am still a novice, plain and simple.
Maybe it is different amongst the advanced groups though. Maybe patience is part of the education. Why do my posts always end in a conclusion of maybes?
Max
07-26-2004, 02:10 PM
#30
Addict
Rennlist
Lifetime Member
Rennlist
Lifetime Member
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: CT
Posts: 300
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Max, great post, the instructors will be fighting over you at the next event.
Regarding the black/red issue -
I don't have experience with the combined program. But that doesn't prevent me from having an opinion.....
When I first heard of it (it was at an instructor meeting and opinions were mixed) I didn't think it was a good idea. I reserved saying much because having a low powered car I am likely to be prejudiced, but I've thought about it and that's not the real issue for me.
To me some of the reasons against it involve maintaining the true DE philosophy; keeping red group as a bone to give instructors in acknowledgement of the effort and risk involved; and a strong personal aversion to further dividing people along the materialistic divide (face it, the red/black division will largely reflect how much $$$ one chooses or is able to spend on a track car. I've gone pretty far down the crack-pipe equivalent path with sailboats and with flying and choose to not do it again.)
But I think the real issue is that the stated structure (red and black being equal in every way except lap time) can't possibly be true. The experience levels will not be the same. In red there is a trust level that allows us to run in very close quarters, take/give late passes, run offline, etc that exists in black only to a lesser degree. An example - several weeks ago I registered late for an event and was put in black, though I instructed. There were other instructors in black, as well as some very good other drivers, but it was very different from red. The mean level of experience and expertise was absolutely not the same. There were drivers, some whose techniques were erratic, who I gave wide berth to. There were THREE drivers who would not let me pass (all late model 911's), one of whom who several times gave me the pass signal before flooring his 996TT. This was with a large region that does a lot of DE's and has lots of very fast cars.
Unless a region kicks a lot of people from black back to white, the "red equivalent" black group will have all or nearly all of the recent graduates from white, as well as those drivers whose abilities (or attitudes) are only marginally black. It won't be like the new, purified, red at all. And ask the guy with the GT3 running bumper-to-bumper with his GT3 and Cup Car buddies in red how comfortable he'd be throwing into the mix someone with a monster car who was a white group driver *yesterday*. If the system is honest, that will happen.
And here's another aspect that is troubling, maybe the one that bothers me the most. Red would be financially exclusionary, and admission price would be high. Under this scenario, to have entrance to the whole DE program it'd not be good enough to simply have a track-capable Porsche and be able to drive it well. To have full access you'd have to have a very fast, expensive one. This kind of classification is natural for racing, of course, but for club DE events it's incredibly wrong.
I warned you not to get me started...
Matt
Regarding the black/red issue -
I don't have experience with the combined program. But that doesn't prevent me from having an opinion.....
When I first heard of it (it was at an instructor meeting and opinions were mixed) I didn't think it was a good idea. I reserved saying much because having a low powered car I am likely to be prejudiced, but I've thought about it and that's not the real issue for me.
To me some of the reasons against it involve maintaining the true DE philosophy; keeping red group as a bone to give instructors in acknowledgement of the effort and risk involved; and a strong personal aversion to further dividing people along the materialistic divide (face it, the red/black division will largely reflect how much $$$ one chooses or is able to spend on a track car. I've gone pretty far down the crack-pipe equivalent path with sailboats and with flying and choose to not do it again.)
But I think the real issue is that the stated structure (red and black being equal in every way except lap time) can't possibly be true. The experience levels will not be the same. In red there is a trust level that allows us to run in very close quarters, take/give late passes, run offline, etc that exists in black only to a lesser degree. An example - several weeks ago I registered late for an event and was put in black, though I instructed. There were other instructors in black, as well as some very good other drivers, but it was very different from red. The mean level of experience and expertise was absolutely not the same. There were drivers, some whose techniques were erratic, who I gave wide berth to. There were THREE drivers who would not let me pass (all late model 911's), one of whom who several times gave me the pass signal before flooring his 996TT. This was with a large region that does a lot of DE's and has lots of very fast cars.
Unless a region kicks a lot of people from black back to white, the "red equivalent" black group will have all or nearly all of the recent graduates from white, as well as those drivers whose abilities (or attitudes) are only marginally black. It won't be like the new, purified, red at all. And ask the guy with the GT3 running bumper-to-bumper with his GT3 and Cup Car buddies in red how comfortable he'd be throwing into the mix someone with a monster car who was a white group driver *yesterday*. If the system is honest, that will happen.
And here's another aspect that is troubling, maybe the one that bothers me the most. Red would be financially exclusionary, and admission price would be high. Under this scenario, to have entrance to the whole DE program it'd not be good enough to simply have a track-capable Porsche and be able to drive it well. To have full access you'd have to have a very fast, expensive one. This kind of classification is natural for racing, of course, but for club DE events it's incredibly wrong.
I warned you not to get me started...
Matt