needmoregarage

PCA Minimum Standards do not allow “Expanded Passing” in any run group other than “advanced”. There is a lot more to this minimum standard, but this is the part pertaining to expanded passing:

From PCA Minimum Standards:

e) Expanded Passing Program
The DE Chair/Event Chair may choose to implement the expanded passing program. With Expanded Passing,
passing may occur on all portions of the track, including all turns. If Expanded Passing is allowed at an event,
it shall follow these restrictions:
• Expanded Passing is to only to be done in the top run group or top two run groups (depending on the
total number of run groups) at the discretion of the Regional DE management. Only Advanced Solo
drivers and instructors are allowed to participate in Expanded Passing. Expanded Passing should never
occur in the novice or newly solo driver run groups.
o For Example: A five (5) run group program consisting of Novice, Beginner, Intermediate,
Advanced and Advanced/Instructor run groups - The only run groups eligible for expanded
passing are the Advanced and Advanced/Instructor run groups.
o For Example: A four (4) run group program consisting of Novice, Beginner,
Intermediate/Advanced and Instructor run groups, only the Instructor run group can participate
in Expanded Passing. If the Regional DE management discerns the drivers in
Intermediate/Advanced meet the qualifications, the top two run groups may have Expanding
Passing.
o For Example: On a DE day where there are two (2) run DE run groups (such as advanced only
days), Region DE management may determine only one run group may participate in expanded
passing.
• All Entrants participating in Expanded Passing must be vetted by the region CDI, CTI or Safety Chair for
their skills and judgement to participate in Expanded Passing.
• All signals are “real time”. If you initiate a pass with a signal, expect a car to pass at the time you give the
signal, not at the next straight away.
• All signals are a contract between two Entrants. If you initiate, let the car pass. If you are given a signal
and decline, you must wave off the signal.
• No more than two cars side by side in the turn.
• When entering a turn with another car, NO ONE OWNS THE TURN. Each Entrant is entitled to 50% of the
track as if there was a white line through the center of the turn.
• The only passengers allowed in the expanded passing run groups are qualified instructors.

GC996

@needmoregarage Good stuff. Always important baseline the national requirements.

Zhao

That's one of the reasons I don't do much driving at the HPDE's I instruct at. I just dont see the point of passing anywhere with drivers of unknown skill. I also do not see the risk vs reward of having a 200k car go into a corner with a 5k car or vice versa.

HPDE's aren't a race so there shouldn't be any need to pass anywhere. And if you're going for a hot lap on your own timing equipment your lap is already blown the second you have to pass someone no matter where it is.

GC996

You bring up a number of good points which are the reason why hand points are so extremely important versus turn signals.

Bottom line is the only way you truly know that the guy infront of you knows you are behind them and its ok to pass them is if they point. Then and only then can you pass them. This is definitive. No room for any confusion.

Turn signals have too much room for error. The person infront may have accidentally hit the signal or they never turned it off from an earlier turn. Let's face it, just because someone is in a very fast new car and can put down some great times on the track and therefore can advance quickly from run group to run group, doesn't necessarily mean they have developed track awareness and driving skills.

Easy to address these issues with windows down and a definitive point for safety over windows up, air conditioning and comfort.

911TurboRules

I disagree. The confusion lies in not being able to see the little hands wearing black gloves. Not all point bys are deliberate. They are deliberate in that there is a hand out the window but is it pointing up? over or out to the left? Just as reading the hand gesture can be confusing, so can the blinkers if left on. No perfect way. Most importantly for either way to work, the driver has to pay attention. And then, safety - a hand off the steering wheel is less control. A hand out the window is a hand that can be amputated. There are studies by NHTSA that have shown this.

Ksdaoski

This is why I only use pointbys on the freeway to signal when I'm passing people. And why NHTSA has decided to eliminate turn signals starting in 2026....

​​​​Turn signals have too much room for error....

needmoregarage

I have my own preference (turn signals) but I believe it is a matter of culture. Both methods have flaws. The safety of the event comes down to consistent use of procedures and enforcement of rules.

Whichever method is used, it’s about consistency and building a culture that includes respect for the rules, and enforcement/adherence to requirements.

GC996

Little hands, weak arms not strong enough to point, drivers that can't steady the steering wheel with one hand, drivers with bad eyesight that can't see what's in front of them?

Sounds like we should put every DE participant thru a physical to make sure they are fit enough to participate in a drivers education session.

All joking aside, if you are worried about unsafe passing areas on the track, petition your region to limit the passing areas. It is after all DE, not Club Racing, nor time trials.

GC996

Amen brother. Comes down to the rules of the region.

No question I enjoy the argument and applaud the OPs persistence. But i respectfully will continue to oppose. But i will gladly buy the OP a beer after a track day and yuck it up with him. My interest is in keeping DE fun and safe going forward.

nineball

it seems pretty obvious that the general consensus of this thread is that signals are safer than sticking your hand out the window. still find it hard to believe that anyone could think it's better to take hands off the wheel while driving on track. then again a woman sued (and won) because she spilled coffee on herself, so human nature is quite capable of anything, be it logistic or not. we can only move as fast as the slowest person...

177mph

The poster mentioned novice groups in their post.....

GC996

Yeah, the poll should include DE experience level of the person voting, as well as if they have an Alcantara interior. 😁

There is what you vote for and then there is real world reality. Be careful what you vote for. The unintended consequences are a b#ch.

stownsen914

I have a crazy idea. What if both hand signals and AND turn signals were allowed as indicators from the leading car to pass? Maybe this was suggested and I missed it, but given the somewhat divided preferences, it might be worth a shot. Personally I drive older racecars that don’t have turn signals.

GC996

Here is the reality, it needs to be a regional decision.

Every region has a variation of experience levels, number of attendees, types of cars therefore number of run groups they should run and the rules within each run group. Very difficult to make it a national rule. So keep the national rules as is and let the regions decide.

needmoregarage

Some tracks dictate windows down (per the contract signed by the renter), so there’s that too…