View Poll Results: HPDE EVENTS WINDOWS UP/DOWN POLL 2024
Windows UP /closed
55
58.51%
Windows DOWN /open
39
41.49%
Voters: 94. You may not vote on this poll
HPDE EVENTS WINDOWS UP/DOWN POLL 2024
05-28-2024, 03:08 PM
#16
Rennlist Member
This happens often. Two weeks ago at Mid Ohio a Cayman clubsport did two full laps with its four way flashers on (normally indicating it was going to pit). It created a train for two laps since no one knew if it was safe to pass. Ridiculous....
05-28-2024, 03:22 PM
#17
Last edited by Ksdaoski; 05-28-2024 at 03:36 PM.
05-28-2024, 03:30 PM
#18
that's a driver issue not a safety issue. no one can argue that taking a hand off the wheel and sticking it over the car while on track is as safe as having two hands on the wheel.
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05-28-2024, 04:29 PM
#19
Rennlist Member
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05-28-2024, 05:24 PM
#20
Nordschleife Master
Any system will work if people learn it and use it. None of this is so complicated.
The choice of signalling a point by with the turn signal as "left to pass on left" is consistent with the by-hand point by. When street driving, both a left hand out and a left turn signal means the driver is moving to the left. On the track, both mean for the follower to pass on the left. (At least in the USA)
I prefer the turn signals as they are visible and can be turned on longer. I have missed, or wondered about, hand passing signals and especially when the signal is the right hand inside the car. The quick left out the window and, possibly, over the top may not coincide with when I'm focused on that driver. Or be clear when my car is to the right side of the track in anticipation of passing on the right.
I've spotted cars with the signal left on. A much more common issue is drivers who just never point you by. Making that easy to do and clear helps.
The choice of signalling a point by with the turn signal as "left to pass on left" is consistent with the by-hand point by. When street driving, both a left hand out and a left turn signal means the driver is moving to the left. On the track, both mean for the follower to pass on the left. (At least in the USA)
I prefer the turn signals as they are visible and can be turned on longer. I have missed, or wondered about, hand passing signals and especially when the signal is the right hand inside the car. The quick left out the window and, possibly, over the top may not coincide with when I'm focused on that driver. Or be clear when my car is to the right side of the track in anticipation of passing on the right.
I've spotted cars with the signal left on. A much more common issue is drivers who just never point you by. Making that easy to do and clear helps.
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Ksdaoski (05-28-2024)
05-28-2024, 06:39 PM
#21
The choice of signalling a point by with the turn signal as "left to pass on left" is consistent with the by-hand point by. When street driving, both a left hand out and a left turn signal means the driver is moving to the left. On the track, both mean for the follower to pass on the left. (At least in the USA)
Also, this poll should have an option "Both - driver's choice".
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George P. (05-28-2024)
05-28-2024, 07:31 PM
#22
which will be huge problem when someone accidentally turns on a turn signal while preferring to use point bys and the car behind him assumes they’ve been given a pass when the driver in front intended no such thing.
false. In most groups I run with a pit-in signal is an implied passing signal. If you’re driving around with your flashers on indicating intent to pit and you have no idea, someone is going to try and pass you when you aren’t expecting it. Any time you’re creating ambiguity on the track, either accidentally or through ignorance, it’s a MASSIVE safety issue.
The reason I’m opposed to turn signals is exactly because of how it’s being discussed here. Do we signal to the “American” or “European” side? What if you accidentally hit your flashers or signals? You can say all of that should be discussed in the driver’s meeting, but how many of those have you been to where people stand around in the back chatting and not paying attention? Earlier this year I was at a drivers meeting and saw a guy standing by his car way outside of earshot of the meeting, and first session that dude is out on track doing dumb crap that was explicitly discussed in the meeting. Hell, people IN the meeting and paying attention do dumb crap all the time. I think that signals introduce ambiguity that really isn’t needed in most “car club style” DE’s. People may throw lame point bys, but there’s no ambiguity when someone points over the top of their car which way they are expecting you to go. If someone can show me data that some outsized percentage of DE accidents occur with somneone’s hand out the window giving a point I’ll change my mind.
Originally Posted by nineball
that's a driver issue not a safety issue.
false. In most groups I run with a pit-in signal is an implied passing signal. If you’re driving around with your flashers on indicating intent to pit and you have no idea, someone is going to try and pass you when you aren’t expecting it. Any time you’re creating ambiguity on the track, either accidentally or through ignorance, it’s a MASSIVE safety issue.
The reason I’m opposed to turn signals is exactly because of how it’s being discussed here. Do we signal to the “American” or “European” side? What if you accidentally hit your flashers or signals? You can say all of that should be discussed in the driver’s meeting, but how many of those have you been to where people stand around in the back chatting and not paying attention? Earlier this year I was at a drivers meeting and saw a guy standing by his car way outside of earshot of the meeting, and first session that dude is out on track doing dumb crap that was explicitly discussed in the meeting. Hell, people IN the meeting and paying attention do dumb crap all the time. I think that signals introduce ambiguity that really isn’t needed in most “car club style” DE’s. People may throw lame point bys, but there’s no ambiguity when someone points over the top of their car which way they are expecting you to go. If someone can show me data that some outsized percentage of DE accidents occur with somneone’s hand out the window giving a point I’ll change my mind.
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GC996 (05-28-2024)
05-28-2024, 08:52 PM
#23
And then there are regions that use flashers ON to indicated its an instructed car where a student is being shown next level skill requirements in next higher run group.
05-28-2024, 11:28 PM
#24
Instructor
I’m curious: how was the turn signal used? In Europe you signal to the direction in which you will stay. For example, if I’m “pointing by” someone to my driver’s side (left side pass) then I signal to the right and stay to the right side of the track. The signal shows intended direction of the car being passed.
In my experience here in the US, most clubs that use signals want you to signal which side should be passed. So in this case, you’d stay right, and put on your left turn signal (driver side) and the overtaking car would pass on the left because you signaled to the left.
IMO the European method is less confusing and also consistent with how we signal on the road (we signal in the intended direction of travel: if we are going right, we signal right & vice versa).
How did it work being allowed the option? Does this mean some have windows up and use turn signals, while others have windows down and use traditional point-by?
In my experience here in the US, most clubs that use signals want you to signal which side should be passed. So in this case, you’d stay right, and put on your left turn signal (driver side) and the overtaking car would pass on the left because you signaled to the left.
IMO the European method is less confusing and also consistent with how we signal on the road (we signal in the intended direction of travel: if we are going right, we signal right & vice versa).
How did it work being allowed the option? Does this mean some have windows up and use turn signals, while others have windows down and use traditional point-by?
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05-28-2024, 11:58 PM
#27
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Cup cars have permanent windows up with no A/C. Yes, don't force one or the other. I should have added that as a option for the poll.
05-29-2024, 07:55 AM
#28
Rennlist Member
Yeah, that was me. Sorry for the ridiculousness. Button stuck.
05-29-2024, 11:01 AM
#29
which will be huge problem when someone accidentally turns on a turn signal while preferring to use point bys and the car behind him assumes they’ve been given a pass when the driver in front intended no such thing.
false. In most groups I run with a pit-in signal is an implied passing signal. If you’re driving around with your flashers on indicating intent to pit and you have no idea, someone is going to try and pass you when you aren’t expecting it. Any time you’re creating ambiguity on the track, either accidentally or through ignorance, it’s a MASSIVE safety issue.
The reason I’m opposed to turn signals is exactly because of how it’s being discussed here. Do we signal to the “American” or “European” side? What if you accidentally hit your flashers or signals? You can say all of that should be discussed in the driver’s meeting, but how many of those have you been to where people stand around in the back chatting and not paying attention? Earlier this year I was at a drivers meeting and saw a guy standing by his car way outside of earshot of the meeting, and first session that dude is out on track doing dumb crap that was explicitly discussed in the meeting. Hell, people IN the meeting and paying attention do dumb crap all the time. I think that signals introduce ambiguity that really isn’t needed in most “car club style” DE’s. People may throw lame point bys, but there’s no ambiguity when someone points over the top of their car which way they are expecting you to go. If someone can show me data that some outsized percentage of DE accidents occur with somneone’s hand out the window giving a point I’ll change my mind.
false. In most groups I run with a pit-in signal is an implied passing signal. If you’re driving around with your flashers on indicating intent to pit and you have no idea, someone is going to try and pass you when you aren’t expecting it. Any time you’re creating ambiguity on the track, either accidentally or through ignorance, it’s a MASSIVE safety issue.
The reason I’m opposed to turn signals is exactly because of how it’s being discussed here. Do we signal to the “American” or “European” side? What if you accidentally hit your flashers or signals? You can say all of that should be discussed in the driver’s meeting, but how many of those have you been to where people stand around in the back chatting and not paying attention? Earlier this year I was at a drivers meeting and saw a guy standing by his car way outside of earshot of the meeting, and first session that dude is out on track doing dumb crap that was explicitly discussed in the meeting. Hell, people IN the meeting and paying attention do dumb crap all the time. I think that signals introduce ambiguity that really isn’t needed in most “car club style” DE’s. People may throw lame point bys, but there’s no ambiguity when someone points over the top of their car which way they are expecting you to go. If someone can show me data that some outsized percentage of DE accidents occur with somneone’s hand out the window giving a point I’ll change my mind.
since we are not in europe, at least most of us, why would we use their methods when they differ from ours?
what about the guy who points straight up in the air instead of over the car? should i drive on top of him?
05-29-2024, 01:47 PM
#30
Rennlist Member
Not sure it's ben mentioned here yet, but I worry about glass windows being up and shattering all over the driver in the case of an impact. I'd rather have them down in the door sill, Yes, I understand the trade-off of a body part exiting the cockpit and doing worse damage, but the broken glass seems more likely to me. (Though I have no data and could be completely wrong about this).
Race cars have lexan and window nets. This issue highlights one of the many compromises made when tracking a street car.
Race cars have lexan and window nets. This issue highlights one of the many compromises made when tracking a street car.