Originally Posted by Zhao

I see way more problems than that one car. You have the yellow car at the front holding up traffic, then you have a yahoo right behind him pacing the yellow car content to never pass him ever. That means a double pass for anyone catching up now and proper edicate is the car behind the leader passes first so it just makes a mess. Then you have your white m3 which is it's own problem, and then you have a bunch of other people seemingly also content to just sit in traffic and literally no one is putting any pressure on anyone to get let by so Mr yellow car probably can't even really be blamed as he probably thinks he's not holding anyone up as usually there is a big gap. Your m3 can't really be blamed because he is often in a position where he's being held up as well waiting for his turn to pass. There are many cars that share the blame there.

You need a new run group, that one sucks.

But you could have done far more to initiate a point by. Notice how the black vette has no problem getting a point by? at 14:55 you could have gone right and probably got yourself a point by also, but you chose to stay left and ride the m3's bumper. You also could have been driving showing you wanted to pass. Drop your car to the inside on corner entry to simulate a passing attempt, hug their bumper around the corner, combine the 2, charge up on them hard (not all passive like you were doing where you gradually caught them). Notice how he does let you by with a little bit of pressure?

Originally Posted by Olemiss540

I can say on the other hand we just wrapped up a 3 day event with BMWCCA at Heartland and not a single issue was elevated and there was a drastic speed differential within the advanced and combined advanced/instructor groupings. Very courteous and competent throughout the grid including in the advanced group classroom sessions (gasp).

Originally Posted by Zhao

I see way more problems than that one car. You have the yellow car at the front holding up traffic, then you have a yahoo right behind him pacing the yellow car content to never pass him ever. That means a double pass for anyone catching up now and proper edicate is the car behind the leader passes first so it just makes a mess. Then you have your white m3 which is it's own problem, and then you have a bunch of other people seemingly also content to just sit in traffic and literally no one is putting any pressure on anyone to get let by so Mr yellow car probably can't even really be blamed as he probably thinks he's not holding anyone up as usually there is a big gap. Your m3 can't really be blamed because he is often in a position where he's being held up as well waiting for his turn to pass. There are many cars that share the blame there.

You need a new run group, that one sucks.

But you could have done far more to initiate a point by. Notice how the black vette has no problem getting a point by? at 14:55 you could have gone right and probably got yourself a point by also, but you chose to stay left and ride the m3's bumper. You also could have been driving showing you wanted to pass. Drop your car to the inside on corner entry to simulate a passing attempt, hug their bumper around the corner, combine the 2, charge up on them hard (not all passive like you were doing where you gradually caught them). Notice how he does let you by with a little bit of pressure?

Originally Posted by stownsen914

The mistakes the M3 driver was making are typical of an early intermediate driver learning to explore the limits of a car. Not great perhaps, but hardly egregious. Oh, and we can include poor track awareness and courtesy to the list of mistakes.

The problem here IMO is that the M3 driver is improperly classified as an advanced driver.

Originally Posted by dgrobs

But it wasn't just the BMW. Look at the awareness level of this "advanced" run group, all of them in that train, from the locomotive to the caboose.
From 12:20 on, it's just a mess from lack of awareness, lack of courtesy, and lack of respect, from pretty much everybody in the train.
Some won't give a point, some don't know how to GIVE a point, some don't know how to GET a point, some didn't leave their egos at home, and some just don't know what awareness actually is.
This is a mess for anything above a lower intermediate run group.
I put as much of the blame on the organizers as I do on the drivers, but clearly, this is a first-class mess, and this is their "advanced" run group.
I can only imagine what was going on in the run group "below" this one. (Maybe it was better than the advanced group?)
What was talked about in the drivers meeting? Was "check your mirrors" even mentioned?

Originally Posted by thebishman

I think it far more likely that the bonehead’s ego, who was (over) driving the high powered M3, just couldn’t allow himself to be passed by a ‘mere’ Miata, even though it was obviously faster on 80% of the course and being driven by a far superior driver. Frankly with the mistakes the M3 was making along with what looked like the ESP having to step in abruptly and often, would you be comfortable riding his/her bumper?

Originally Posted by dgrobs

But it wasn't just the BMW. Look at the awareness level of this "advanced" run group, all of them in that train, from the locomotive to the caboose.
From 12:20 on, it's just a mess from lack of awareness, lack of courtesy, and lack of respect, from pretty much everybody in the train.
Some won't give a point, some don't know how to GIVE a point, some don't know how to GET a point, some didn't leave their egos at home, and some just don't know what awareness actually is.
This is a mess for anything above a lower intermediate run group.
I put as much of the blame on the organizers as I do on the drivers, but clearly, this is a first-class mess, and this is their "advanced" run group.
I can only imagine what was going on in the run group "below" this one. (Maybe it was better than the advanced group?)
What was talked about in the drivers meeting? Was "check your mirrors" even mentioned?

Originally Posted by Zhao

This is my busy time for instructing since it's the busy time for schools and corporate events, and this thread has made me talk about this a fair bit with fellow instructors. The more I think of it the more I blame and get angry at organizers. Crap like this latest video where you just want to nuke the entire run group from orbit it's top down culture that promotes and causes it imo. I know not every instructor feels the same way as me, but I'd at least half I talk to get just as angry about this topic as I do, and maybe only like 1/10 instructors I talk to are teh type that think teehee, it's not a race, just pull into the pits if you dont get a point by!

Originally Posted by De Jeeper

Well in that 2nd vid the red gt3ish 911 did a great job at letting u by .

I was in that session during the first vid too. The 2 supras, i think, (yellow and grey) were delt with by the officials after a few sessions. They were running together and doing a **** poor job at point bys. After talking with the folks in charge at Mo-e its a fine line that they have to walk to try and keep everyone happy.

The white bmw was deff not aware enough to be in our group, but again it was an early session and a train so it took a while to sort him out.

All in all that day in advanced was pretty good with 45 cars in the group. Im middle of the pack for speed so i regularly give and take passes in this group. It’s about keeping good situational awareness. I have had bad sessions in almost every group i have run with, scda, mo-e, various pcas, hod and mass tuning. It’s what happens when u get 30-45 different cars (and drivers) on a track, but i still keep coming back because it’s a blast.

Originally Posted by dgrobs

But it wasn't just the BMW. Look at the awareness level of this "advanced" run group, all of them in that train, from the locomotive to the caboose.
From 12:20 on, it's just a mess from lack of awareness, lack of courtesy, and lack of respect, from pretty much everybody in the train.
Some won't give a point, some don't know how to GIVE a point, some don't know how to GET a point, some didn't leave their egos at home, and some just don't know what awareness actually is.
This is a mess for anything above a lower intermediate run group.
I put as much of the blame on the organizers as I do on the drivers, but clearly, this is a first-class mess, and this is their "advanced" run group.
I can only imagine what was going on in the run group "below" this one. (Maybe it was better than the advanced group?)
What was talked about in the drivers meeting? Was "check your mirrors" even mentioned?