mobius911

I know of one group that runs a driver debrief after every session, regardless of whether it's beginner or advanced (they have 4 levels total). If you don't attend, you don't get a helmet sticker and can't run the next session. The lower-level sessions should (and generally do) take longer than the advanced session debriefs, but they all typically last less than 15 minutes. The sessions include admitted self-owns as well as issues spotted by the instructors and/or corner workers, as well as a general Q&A. I found the debriefs almost always brought up "teachable moments", and the discussion and interaction led the group to feel more like a team working together to make sure everyone had a great time rather than individual "competitors".

This approach takes effort, but I think it's well worth it. Issues like the above would be spotted and dealt with before the next session.

gbuff

dgrobs

In my home PCA region NNJR, we have mentor meetings for each run group before the track goes hot each morning and after each run groups last session when the track goes cold in the afternoon.

It works and should be used with groups that might be having issues. It’s a great idea and it works.

Doing it after every session might be a bit much, but if it works, it works.

We do it twice a day, before we start and after we finish. It does indeed work.
Also puts a face to the car so the douchebags who want to be douchebags cannot be said douchebags anonymously. Imagine that.

Thanks for posting this Möbius. Smart stuff…

mobius911

My first track day was with NNJR at Lime Rock, so long ago I'm embarrassed to admit when it was. I think it was 1987. I was in Jersey Shore region and our goal was to grow up and someday host track days like our big brother to the north. I think they've finally achieved that, although I moved away in 1990. But I still have great memories of that weekend at LRP. "You never forget your first."

dgrobs

Fantastic….

Mark Dreyer

I drove my 986 S “Boxzilla” a lot of years in advanced group, and never once had a complaint that I was holding anyone up. It can be done with a modicum of humility, courtesy, and awareness.

NastyHabits

Love the debrief. Experienced during SCCA time trials last year at Gingerman. I was running MX5 Cup in unlimited class and it sure seemed to ease the mind of the high HP guys that I wasn't a nitwit, in or out of the car.

Also, can't help but wonder if debrief's would have helped the Goat F' that was the Intermediate group at PBOC Sebring in January. About a hundred posts on the topic in the PBOC thread from January.

dgrobs

It wouldn’t have hurt, that’s for sure.

Super Solo ran very smoothly IIRC, but the Intermediate group (went out with Roblin in my right seat-thanks Mike ), was a different story.

I think that PBOC was going to do the mentor/debrief thing in the future. I know it was spoken about.

It will help as it puts a face to the car. Amazing how the lack of anonymity changes egos in a hurry.

Already looking forward to Winterfest next January. Such a great time and 5 straight at Sebring is no joke.

Wonderful event.

OK, back to the Miata’s and such…..

Olemiss540

100% agree. I drove down a run group for years in my stock e36 and most intermediate drivers were perfectly capable/courteous realizing their high hp car was being outdriven and were quick to point by to get some open track behind them. That's why I dont believe its a training issue as every single drivers meeting addresses this specific issue. Every. Single. One.

LuigiVampa

The bottom line is that regardless of the type of car you drive, or your relative skill level, if you are consistently holding people up you are embarrassing yourself.

If the organization putting on the track day allows a driver to consistently hold up other drivers than they have failed.

It's an easy problem to fix: 1. check your ego at the door; and 2. use your mirrors

stownsen914

Totally agreed. And to suggest another point
3. Classify drivers correctly - usually up to the org. Though not so common, drivers can do this too as part of point #1!

thebishman

Since I started HPDEs in 1995, there has been a big increase in participation, at least here in the Midwest. So the run groups, obviously have got larger. Cars also have changed, in that 300hp back in the mid-‘90s was a pretty powerful car; today we see ‘newbies’ bringing C7 Z06s; 500 hp Mustangs, etc to the track. Hence these new drivers far more easily can cause a ‘train’ since they are so fast on the straights, but because of lack of experience, are slow in the twisty bits, and they are laser focused on what’s in front; never what’s behind.

The organizations seem to me to be accelerating the time they take to sign someone off to go Solo. Do they really think that a Saturday morning, or perhaps all four sessions during a Saturday is enough time for someone in the Beginner’s group to drive without an instructor? And yet it happens all of the time it seems. When I started taking my son with me, I had a ‘15 Z06/7 and his instructor wanted to sign him off to run solo after two run sessions! My Son, who actually is a good driver thought this was cool AF, but I talked the instructor to stay in the car with him at least throughout the first day. Hell, I’ve been doing this like many of you for decades, but I enjoy having an instructor jump in the car with me now and again.

Sorry for the length of the post, but I really think lack of organizational ‘control’; (perhaps because of a lack of instructors?), is the main issue I’ve had to deal with over these later years.

M13S

I think the old - You get what you pay for comes into play.

dgrobs

Agree with this with some groups and disagree with others.

IME, the "for-profit" groups were a lot more lenient with soloing newer drivers than the "not for profit" groups" BMW, PCA, etc., and this can show up on track as a problem, obviously.

In recent years, the not-for-profit groups, some of them, have become guilty of the same thing. Some!!

It's really on the organizers, whether for profit or not, to develop their programs slowly, and bring their drivers along the same way.

nineball

yep. back in the day a 300hp car was a god. in our PCA events instructors and the most advanced students are grouped together into a-blue/a-red and separated by hp, and the cutoff is 350. hp is (relatively) cheap now.

your son's instructor should not be an instructor. no beginner should be out on track after 2 sessions alone. that is ridiculous.