Notices
Racing & Drivers Education Forum
Sponsored by:
Sponsored by:

Shank Penalized for TPMS Offsets at Daytona

Thread Tools
 
Search this Thread
 
Old 03-13-2023, 12:25 PM
  #46  
Cory M
Drifting
 
Cory M's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: San Diego
Posts: 3,456
Received 74 Likes on 43 Posts
Default

So HPD has 45 engineers looking after two engines, but MSR only has a single engineer looking at chassis data and tire pressures, with no oversight or review from other team members? Maybe one guy made the modification to the code in the software, but I'm guessing there were a lot of blind eyes in the pit. I wouldn't expect a team owner to be that engaged with the technical details, but I think the idea that a single "rouge" person on the team was aware is silly.
The following users liked this post:
winders (03-13-2023)
Old 03-13-2023, 12:39 PM
  #47  
NaroEscape
Basic Sponsor
Rennlist
Site Sponsor

 
NaroEscape's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Charlotte, NC
Posts: 3,770
Received 602 Likes on 312 Posts
Default

I don't know... Matt? How many people are checking your work when you do a new data set up on a TA car?
TBH, my guess is there are very few if any people on the team that would even know what to look at or what they were looking at if it were staring them in the face. And honestly, why would they? Of the thousands of data points that are monitored, we know of this specific thing only because they got caught. How many other things have been 'manipulated' that we'll never know about? From all the teams up and down the paddock....
Every team member is trusted to do their job, there aren't a lot of checks and balances (due to time and resources primarily). Obviously this trust was broken by this engineer.

Look, I'm not saying its not possible that others knew, and they very well could have. But it's also not 'silly' that one guy couldn't do this. I've crewed on a few IMSA teams and know first hand that each member is in charge of their job, nobody is looking over their shoulder...ESPECIALLY the engineers....
__________________
Bob Saville

Getting You On Track!
www.naroescapemotorsports.com
704-395-2975
  • Data Analysis & Coaching
  • Drivers Gear
  • Crew Gear
  • Car Gear

'07 SPC
'71 914/6 Huey
'04 GT3

The following users liked this post:
9114609048 (03-13-2023)
Old 03-14-2023, 01:00 PM
  #48  
MB965
Rennlist Member
 
MB965's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Posts: 419
Received 55 Likes on 34 Posts
Default

So who on the team fills the tires to set pressure and do they use the TPMS output or a standalone pressure gauge?
Old 03-14-2023, 02:00 PM
  #49  
ProCoach
Rennlist
Basic Site Sponsor
 
ProCoach's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Durham, NC and Virginia International Raceway
Posts: 18,895
Received 3,009 Likes on 1,764 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by MB965
So who on the team fills the tires to set pressure and do they use the TPMS output or a standalone pressure gauge?
Standard, tested gauges. Multiples.
__________________
-Peter Krause
www.peterkrause.net
www.gofasternow.com
"Combining the Art and Science of Driving Fast!"
Specializing in Professional, Private Driver Performance Evaluation and Optimization
Consultation Available Remotely and at VIRginia International Raceway






















Old 03-14-2023, 03:07 PM
  #50  
Matt Romanowski
Rennlist Hoonigan
which cost no drachmas
Lifetime Rennlist
Member


Rennlist
Site Sponsor
Thread Starter
 
Matt Romanowski's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Manchester, NH
Posts: 12,585
Received 901 Likes on 551 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by MB965
So who on the team fills the tires to set pressure and do they use the TPMS output or a standalone pressure gauge?
Originally Posted by ProCoach
Standard, tested gauges. Multiples.
The teams I have been around were no what Peter is suggesting. The main tire guy has a gauge that matches the TPMS. The gauge is used to set the pressure when they tires are put on the car, but they TPMS is trusted after that. That is based on DTM, LMP2, LMP3, older LMP1, and a bunch of other teams. I haven't worked with any Indycar teams, but watching from the outside, that is how they have done it as well.
Old 03-14-2023, 06:06 PM
  #51  
ProCoach
Rennlist
Basic Site Sponsor
 
ProCoach's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Durham, NC and Virginia International Raceway
Posts: 18,895
Received 3,009 Likes on 1,764 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by Matt Romanowski
The main tire guy has a gauge that matches the TPMS. The gauge is used to set the pressure when they tires are put on the car, but they TPMS is trusted after that.
Umm, yeah. That's what I said.
Old 03-15-2023, 10:44 AM
  #52  
NaroEscape
Basic Sponsor
Rennlist
Site Sponsor

 
NaroEscape's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Charlotte, NC
Posts: 3,770
Received 602 Likes on 312 Posts
Default

To be fair, I hadn't considered the tire pressure fill guy. But to support my argument, it's also unlikely the tire fill guy knows the regulations and just goes by what the engineer tells him to fill them to.
My point is this: there are probably very few people on any given team that know the entire rule book and CERTAINLY the manual labor guys don't. They do what they're told. Remember, almost all of these teams consist of just a few 'full timers' with most crew guys as fly-ins just for races.
Old 03-16-2023, 12:03 PM
  #53  
ProCoach
Rennlist
Basic Site Sponsor
 
ProCoach's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Durham, NC and Virginia International Raceway
Posts: 18,895
Received 3,009 Likes on 1,764 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by NaroEscape
To be fair, I hadn't considered the tire pressure fill guy. But to support my argument, it's also unlikely the tire fill guy knows the regulations and just goes by what the engineer tells him to fill them to.
My point is this: there are probably very few people on any given team that know the entire rule book and CERTAINLY the manual labor guys don't. They do what they're told. Remember, almost all of these teams consist of just a few 'full timers' with most crew guys as fly-ins just for races.
Bob, in my experience, at the top level, each crew that is responsible for a specific performance aspect of the car (and ANYONE on the over-the-wall crew) is well-schooled in the rule book that governs their particular area.

The first thing the engineers and the crew responsible for the tires read is the manufacturer and regulatory bulletins regarding minimum tire pressures.

This is not new. The recommendations have been around for a long time, the regulations around for years.

Everyone that touches or monitors those pressures at the top level, racing for the overall win, knows what is required.

I don't buy the "lone rogue engineer" story. Cadillac was penalized twice during Petit LeMans for the same infraction when IMSA picked up low pressures that the team is mandated to provide.

Old 03-16-2023, 03:57 PM
  #54  
T&T Racing
Rennlist Member
 
T&T Racing's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: New York & Indiana
Posts: 2,878
Received 340 Likes on 272 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by NaroEscape
To be fair, I hadn't considered the tire pressure fill guy. But to support my argument, it's also unlikely the tire fill guy knows the regulations and just goes by what the engineer tells him to fill them to.
My point is this: there are probably very few people on any given team that know the entire rule book and CERTAINLY the manual labor guys don't. They do what they're told. Remember, almost all of these teams consist of just a few 'full timers' with most crew guys as fly-ins just for races.
My conspiracy theory is that the race engineer allegedly inserted a positive offset in the monitoring software and then adjusted the tire electronic pressure gauge with the same offset. Walla, both the gauge and the TPMS read the same value except actual tire pressure is lower ( below minimum) to indicated pressure which is at minimum or greater.
The race engineer is the only crew member reported to have his hard card badge confiscated.

Last edited by T&T Racing; 03-16-2023 at 04:01 PM.
Old 03-17-2023, 02:47 PM
  #55  
Cory M
Drifting
 
Cory M's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: San Diego
Posts: 3,456
Received 74 Likes on 43 Posts
Default

If the one autonomous person on the team who knows how to use a computer and calibrate a tire pressure gauge gets hit by a bus on the morning of the race, I guess the team has to pack up and go home.


The following 2 users liked this post by Cory M:
Matt Romanowski (03-17-2023), skl (03-21-2023)
Old 03-17-2023, 07:38 PM
  #56  
Veloce Raptor
Rennlist Member
 
Veloce Raptor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Guess...
Posts: 41,738
Received 1,535 Likes on 810 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by Cory M
If the one autonomous person on the team who knows how to use a computer and calibrate a tire pressure gauge gets hit by a bus on the morning of the race, I guess the team has to pack up and go home.

EXACTLY
The following users liked this post:
ProCoach (03-17-2023)
Old 03-17-2023, 07:45 PM
  #57  
38D
Nordschleife Master
 
38D's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: About to pass you...
Posts: 6,637
Received 797 Likes on 404 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by T&T Racing
My conspiracy theory is that the race engineer allegedly inserted a positive offset in the monitoring software and then adjusted the tire electronic pressure gauge with the same offset. Walla, both the gauge and the TPMS read the same value except actual tire pressure is lower ( below minimum) to indicated pressure which is at minimum or greater.
seems like the tire guy would notice the gauge reading a negative number when not hooked up and would zero it.
Old 05-14-2023, 10:42 AM
  #58  
Matt Romanowski
Rennlist Hoonigan
which cost no drachmas
Lifetime Rennlist
Member


Rennlist
Site Sponsor
Thread Starter
 
Matt Romanowski's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Manchester, NH
Posts: 12,585
Received 901 Likes on 551 Posts
Default

The latest RaceTech magazine reports that they used an offset in the data to show the manipulated pressures.



Quick Reply: Shank Penalized for TPMS Offsets at Daytona



All times are GMT -3. The time now is 04:03 PM.