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I had posted this on the 997 forum but not too much response yet, so maybe it's really more appropriate to try here. Always grateful for your help!
Repost
I am on my next step of the slippery slope and wanted to ask for some feedback and advice.
I have a 2005 911S coupe, and my Michelin Pilot Sport 4S tires are “done”. I got the tires in April 2018 and put 10K miles on them, including what I think were too many track sessions (16 days, 57 sessions, over 22 at-speed hours). They worked well enough for me, but I am transitioning to more track time and less street use and want to upgrade grip for the next set. I am a PCA Green driver trying to progress into Blue. I was only doing 1 or 2 track events per year until this year, when I did six since I had just retired. The first sign that my tires were reaching the limit was my next to last event (October), during the second day (warm) at VIR. After 4-5 laps, the rears began to make a weird “gravelly” noise during full turn exits. I backed off a little bit and finished the event. Then, at the season ending event (at Summit Point Main) I experienced the same thing, worsening to the point that on day two, session two, I had to pit. I was on my Blue check ride and the instructor said she (yes, female) was getting uncomfortable with it. Which was a bummer since I had driven in Blue most of the weekend (with an instructor) and felt I would pass. In fact, in the previous VIR event I was classed in PCA Blue (FSR Region) the whole weekend. So it was frustrating to feel thwarted by my tires just as I hoped to have been promoted. A case of getting conflicting advice from tech inspections and my tire dealer, where most (but not all) said the tires were fine. I had enough tread, although I did have a significant amount of rubber pickup deposits on the rears. Admittedly, I was not knowledgeable enough to do a better job of looking out for myself. I have since created a spreadsheet for all my events and can now monitor cumulative sessions/hours.
I have done some research on this and the 997 forum and others, talked to my local tire guy (Radial Tire of Silver Spring MD), and chatted online with Tire Rack. Leaning mostly on Tire Rack website research and chat confirmation from them, I am looking to buy a set of Falken Azenis RT660’s. The objective track data and subjective reviews all seem pretty good, and they have good size options for me. Pricing is good too. My tire dealer had recommended the new Continental Extreme Contact Force tire, which I like but it does not offer some size options I am interested in. I currently have standard 19” 235/35 and 295/30 tires on a set of lobster fork/claw wheels. I would like to increase my tread width just a bit, to 245/35 and 305/30. Everything I can find says these will still fit okay on my 997.1 C2S. I am also in the process of getting a best possible improvement in my alignment settings to get max camber with OEM hardware (I should get a little more since the car was lowered 20mm with Ohlins R&T coilovers).
I would also like to get some new wheels since I am not enamored with the lobsters and because I will have to bring the RT660’s inside for the winter. Again, I have spent a good bit of time combing the internet and the RL forum for wheel options. I have come up with Flow One Race Spec F2 and OZ UltraLeggera/Leggera options thru Tire Rack. I am leaning towards Flow One since they are significantly cheaper (about $1200 for a set versus about $2K). All these options are slightly lighter than the lobsters. My existing offsets are 57F and 67R, and these new options are 53F and 65R. The rear wheels would stay at 11” width but the fronts would increase from 8” to 8.5”. I still cannot find evidence that any of this will be a fitment problem. I pasted an image below from the Flow One site for the wheel I like, on a 911 that looks a lot like mine (but I am NA). https://flowonewheels.com/vehicles/p...s-gunmetal-f2/
From Flow One website
So, my questions are:
1) Any thoughts on my tire “breakdown” saga – does it sound somewhat normal? Were they heat cycled out? Is that the correct terminology?
2) Anyone to strongly dissuade me from the Falken RT660 tire selection? Any clearly better choice for an intermediate DE guy? I don’t care too much about road noise. I realize how subjective this can be.
3) Feedback on the width bump up? Worth it up front to lessen understeer a bit?
4) Thoughts on the Flow One wheels? Yes, the OZ are probably better products but I’m not sure my level of driving necessitates them.
5) Expectations for overall fitment clearances?
6) Lastly, I have PCCB’s (I am changing out the ceramic system to steel this winter but I want to keep the calipers) so how do I positively assure myself ahead of time there is clearance for these slightly larger than normal calipers? I asked Tire Rack and they will not make an ironclad guarantee re those calipers. I have emailed Flow One to ask them for an official reply but not heard back yet. Yes, spacers are an option but I was hoping to avoid that.
Thanks kindly for any thoughts and feedback you might have. Sorry for the long read but I didn’t want to come up short on background. Hope it all makes sense.
Check out Apex wheels also and you can't go wrong with the RT660 as a track/street tire.
Peter
Thanks Peter. I have looked at them and they do seem like a great product. They are up in the $2K+ area, but still seem very reasonable. I like the anthracite finish for my already all-black car. But they don't seem to offer anything less that a 9" wide wheel for my fronts. Maybe that's a good thing? Would I go up to a 255 width tire? Or more? And thanks for the positive feedback on the RT660's!
Im pretty sure i can go down to 18's and save a good amount if money on tires and rims r a little less. Im pretty sure they will fit over your brakes as mine go over 380mm rotors and save rotating mass weight.
Im pretty sure i can go down to 18's and save a good amount if money on tires and rims r a little less. Im pretty sure they will fit over your brakes as mine go over 380mm rotors and save rotating mass weight.
Thanks. I've heard that a bit so I will look again at the 18" wheel options. My rotors are 350mm. Thanks!
Both 18" and 19" wheels work great on the 997 platform, and choosing between the two really comes down to personal preference and tire availability as not all compounds are available in both diameters. 18" wheels will naturally reduce rotational mass, as well as mitigate the running cost of tires (which really starts to add up when you find yourself at the track on the weekends more often than your kids sporting events ).
Our 18" Porsche wheels (both flow formed and forged options) were engineered specifically to clear the 997 6 piston 380mm PCCBs, but there are many aftermarket wheels out there that will not.
We offer both 8.5" and 9" front wheel options for the 997 narrowbody chassis, however, 9" front wheels are a must for track use due to the fact that they will provide superior sidewall support over the more "generic" 8.5" size commonly for street applications. A well supported tire will result in better performance and wear, and wider front wheels and tires collectively will result in better handling in the form of improved turn-in and less understeer. 245 and 255 size front tires are commonly used on 9" wheels, however, with the right amount of negative camber one could go as wide as 265.
In the rear, we offer both 11" and 12" wheels depending on what rear tire size you plan to run. 11" wheels are best suited for 285, 295, and 305 tire sizes, while 12" wheels are best suited for 305s that run wide, 315, and 325 (325 only applicable in 19").
It sounds like you have a good amount of seat time on Michelin PS4S tires, which are great for novice drivers coming up to speed on track awareness, the driving line, braking zones, etc. As you pick up the pace and attend track events more frequently you'll desire a tire that can better handle repetitive lapping and one that offers a bit more grip.
Here are my recommendations for a 997 C2 or C2S with an emphasis on the 18" setup.
Note: Our 18x11" ET60 rear wheels can also be used, but the 12" wheel will provide more support since the NT01 runs wide, and give you the option of running a 315 down the road
Note: Our 19x11" ET60 rear wheels can also be used, but the 12" wheel will provide more support since the RT660 runs wide, and give you the option of running a 315 or 325 down the road
Aside form upgrading your wheel and tire setup, and I would strongly urge you to increase your negative camber specs. Not only will the additional negative camber improve handling, it will ensure you get the most life out of your precious tires. Without the appropriate amount of negative camber, you wont be able to extract the most performance and life out of your tires and the outer shoulders will get destroyed (as I'm sure you are already experiencing with the PS4S). For a dual-duty setting (street + track), we would suggest somewhere around -2.5º front, -2º rear with zero toe up front and a little toe-in in the rear. Ultimately, your ideal alignment settings will come down to how often you use the car on track vs the street, what tire compound you are running, track layout, etc.
Here is a link to our 997 C2 & C2S wheel & tire fitment guide for more details: LINK
Let me know if you have further questions. Hopefully this helps!
If you are tracking a lot and probably swapping to racing pads and/or flushing fluid for the track and thus removing wheels anyway, a dedicated set of track wheels & tires is a no brainer. Since you are doing this, there is no need to compromise on the track tires so why not go with a bona fide r tire like NT-01?
Have you considered picking one of the beautiful wheels shown above and mounting your street tires on them, and relegating your lobsters to track duty? With r comps you’ll have plenty of grip at stock widths, less concerns with rubbing wider tires under track loads, and probably better handling with the sizes Porsche designed the car for.
Both 18" and 19" wheels work great on the 997 platform, and choosing between the two really comes down to personal preference and tire availability as not all compounds are available in both diameters. 18" wheels will naturally reduce rotational mass, as well as mitigate the running cost of tires (which really starts to add up when you find yourself at the track on the weekends more often than your kids sporting events ).
Our 18" Porsche wheels (both flow formed and forged options) were engineered specifically to clear the 997 6 piston 380mm PCCBs, but there are many aftermarket wheels out there that will not.
We offer both 8.5" and 9" front wheel options for the 997 narrowbody chassis, however, 9" front wheels are a must for track use due to the fact that they will provide superior sidewall support over the more "generic" 8.5" size commonly for street applications. A well supported tire will result in better performance and wear, and wider front wheels and tires collectively will result in better handling in the form of improved turn-in and less understeer. 245 and 255 size front tires are commonly used on 9" wheels, however, with the right amount of negative camber one could go as wide as 265.
In the rear, we offer both 11" and 12" wheels depending on what rear tire size you plan to run. 11" wheels are best suited for 285, 295, and 305 tire sizes, while 12" wheels are best suited for 305s that run wide, 315, and 325 (325 only applicable in 19").
It sounds like you have a good amount of seat time on Michelin PS4S tires, which are great for novice drivers coming up to speed on track awareness, the driving line, braking zones, etc. As you pick up the pace and attend track events more frequently you'll desire a tire that can better handle repetitive lapping and one that offers a bit more grip.
Here are my recommendations for a 997 C2 or C2S with an emphasis on the 18" setup.
Note: Our 18x11" ET60 rear wheels can also be used, but the 12" wheel will provide more support since the NT01 runs wide, and give you the option of running a 315 down the road
Note: Our 19x11" ET60 rear wheels can also be used, but the 12" wheel will provide more support since the RT660 runs wide, and give you the option of running a 315 or 325 down the road
Aside form upgrading your wheel and tire setup, and I would strongly urge you to increase your negative camber specs. Not only will the additional negative camber improve handling, it will ensure you get the most life out of your precious tires. Without the appropriate amount of negative camber, you wont be able to extract the most performance and life out of your tires and the outer shoulders will get destroyed (as I'm sure you are already experiencing with the PS4S). For a dual-duty setting (street + track), we would suggest somewhere around -2.5º front, -2º rear with zero toe up front and a little toe-in in the rear. Ultimately, your ideal alignment settings will come down to how often you use the car on track vs the street, what tire compound you are running, track layout, etc.
Here is a link to our 997 C2 & C2S wheel & tire fitment guide for more details: LINK
Let me know if you have further questions. Hopefully this helps!
- Ryan
Wow. That was amazing. I PM'd you earlier so we can talk soon. I am very grateful for all the information you have provided. I think I now know where I am getting my wheels from.....
I will follow up later in the thread with any resolution(s).
If you are tracking a lot and probably swapping to racing pads and/or flushing fluid for the track and thus removing wheels anyway, a dedicated set of track wheels & tires is a no brainer. Since you are doing this, there is no need to compromise on the track tires so why not go with a bona fide r tire like NT-01?
Have you considered picking one of the beautiful wheels shown above and mounting your street tires on them, and relegating your lobsters to track duty? With r comps you’ll have plenty of grip at stock widths, less concerns with rubbing wider tires under track loads, and probably better handling with the sizes Porsche designed the car for.
Thanks Jayzbird. My "plan" (which seems to often morph) is to use my "track" wheels and tires also as my street wheels/tires for the warmer months. Since I would prefer a different wheel for street than I have now (lobsters), that means I would use the old set for winter and enjoy the performance and looks of the new set spring to fall. But I am definitely leaning towards the Apex wheels. I am now pretty much turned off on the Flow One wheels as I have learned some issues with their interface to my car. If I were a more advanced driver, I might consider the on/off approach you are suggesting. And even the NT-01 tires. Maybe some day, if I can hang in there before I geez out. I am also in the process of buying a pickup truck so I can trailer the car to most events and spare the highway wear, at least for anything beyond Summit Point WV.
Check out Apex wheels also and you can't go wrong with the RT660 as a track/street tire.
Peter
Thanks Peter. I have done just that. Maybe your post triggered Apex to chime in, and I am now headed in that direction! I appreciate your thumb's-up on the RT660; I am still planning on them.
My 2 cents. Green/Blue driver may be an issue running R comps. Some clubs will not like it. I prefer running good street tires and working them. Streets will give you more warning before they let go, more durability, usable in rain but not that great in the rain. And my 07 C2S and 07 GT3 RS have stacks of 18" OZ wheels from supporting wifey and myself over 12 years of autocross @ 30+ autox days per year. My Lizard (DE only) has a roll bar, but may never see true R comp tires. OEM set of wheels on the car with tires getting wasted, 2nd set OEM wheels waiting for new sneakers. Your tire choice for DE will not have any impact on your prize money or position on the podium.
You did not mention checking tire pressures?
My 2 cents. Green/Blue driver may be an issue running R comps. Some clubs will not like it. I prefer running good street tires and working them. Streets will give you more warning before they let go, more durability, usable in rain but not that great in the rain. And my 07 C2S and 07 GT3 RS have stacks of 18" OZ wheels from supporting wifey and myself over 12 years of autocross @ 30+ autox days per year. My Lizard (DE only) has a roll bar, but may never see true R comp tires. OEM set of wheels on the car with tires getting wasted, 2nd set OEM wheels waiting for new sneakers. Your tire choice for DE will not have any impact on your prize money or position on the podium.
You did not mention checking tire pressures?
I agree with your first comment. I feel more comfortable using good 200 treadwear tires suited for street and track. The RT660 does that pretty well, I think. Yes, I want to improve, but I don't want that to come with undue safety risk.
"Your tire choice for DE will not have any impact on your prize money or position on the podium." Totally - At age 65 I feel pretty sensible about my limitations.
I am a diligent and immediate tire pressure checker. Through advice and evaluation I had settled on 35 psi (hot) all around on those Michelin Piot Sport 4S tires. I had earlier been more in the 32-34 range.
12-08-2021, 07:03 PM
Street/DE Tire/Wheel Selection
and because I will have to bring the RT660’s inside for the winter. Again, I have spent a good bit of time combing the internet and the RL forum for wheel options. I have come up with Flow One Race Spec F2 and OZ UltraLeggera/Leggera options thru Tire Rack. I am leaning towards Flow One since they are significantly cheaper (about $1200 for a set versus about $2K). All these options are slightly lighter than the lobsters. My existing offsets are 57F and 67R, and these new options are 53F and 65R. The rear wheels would stay at 11” width but the fronts would increase from 8” to 8.5”. I still cannot find evidence that any of this will be a fitment problem. I pasted an image below from the Flow One site for the wheel I like, on a 911 that looks a lot like mine (but I am NA). https://flowonewheels.com/vehicles/p...s-gunmetal-f2/
).
I think I now know where I am getting my wheels from.....
I am also in the process of buying a pickup truck so I can trailer the car to most events and spare the highway wear, at least for anything beyond Summit Point WV.
Totally - At age 65 I feel pretty sensible about my limitations.