sf_c63

Well it's funny you mention that...I had intended to include this vid when I created this thread but I was away from my computer. This happened several track days ago where I was stuck in a slow group so I decided to turn off PSM and practice some aggressive lines to see what I could get away with:


I went into Turn 9 at Laguna Seca with the wheel turned and full throttle. That turn is trickier than it appears because it looks like its banked a bit but in reality you're going downhill at an angle and after the apex the ground flattens completely. You have to attack it straight and let the car run wide.

Zhao

10 is the right hander, 9 is the left hander. Before I watched the video I was like I bet he means 9!



I’m not really the one to ask about laguna Seca so take this info with a huge grain of salt but from what I remember there are 2 possible lines in that corner that work, a line that late apexes it more starting on the far right of the track and uses some throttle to stabilize the car and power through it, and a momentum line that enters near the left and dives down low and feeds power after the apex, and both involve tracking out to the rumble strips. Your line on that lap is in-between them with too much turning at the end of the corner and you force the car too much with the steering wheel to do what it doesn’t want to do. That corner needs to flow nicely without forcing the car at all.

sobiloff

I'm in a '21 GT4, so the nannies are very unobtrusive and I've yet to disable them. In fact, I don't plan to because when I screw up I want that little extra safety net there! I keep in mind that I'm not racing, I'm just out there to learn and have fun. (Well, OK, I do race in Time Attacks, but that's not Real Racing™—at least at my local level, that's where the fastest cars / drivers go.)

Frankly, I've decided that my speeds are getting high enough, and my lap times fast enough, that it's time to start looking at Spec Boxster as a much more financially forgiving way to explore the nanny-less limits without putting a car I dearly love at risk. I've already rented Spec Miatas a couple of times, and felt a lot more comfortable pushing their limits, but I like the quality of the PSB racing I've seen better than Spec Piñata's.

@sf_c63 , talk with Larry Oka about renting well-maintained Spec Miatas at Thunderhill (or Sonoma, IIRC).

PTSFX

You’ll almost certainly learn to be a better driver with it off. The question only you can answer is what is the price you are willing to pay for that education? If you can write off the car and walk away from a total loss, and you have all the necessary safety equipment, then my all means…

I run with mine on as it’s not worth the one second faster lap time to push beyond my ability with it turned off. It might come on 2-3x per session, and that’s just fine with me.

Jabs1542

This is actually easier than you think. Pick a track with one or two open corners (corners with plenty of safe runoff), turn off your PSM, and only push the car in those corners. The rest of the time you are at 8/10’s. Once I did this I got a feel for the natural balance of my car and now I can leave PSM on and it no longer kicks in and no longer chews up my rear brake pads - oh yea, and I dropped a couple seconds

zbomb

For me, I could see the PSM intrusion in my data (brake application while at 100% Throttle Position:, and it was very active (03 C2). About 12 days in to my track driving experience I had an ABS / PSM failure due to a bad ABS pump. This ended up being pretty dramatic on the brakes with near instant lock-up with heavy brake application.

In reviewing my data after the failure, I noticed the the failure point was early in the lap, I could see in the data areas where my PSM would normally be active, the failure caused no intrusion, I also noticed - I could not tell in the car. This let me know that the programming of the PSM for my car was WELL below what the car was capable of doing comfortably. I also thought that it may be possible that the constant triggering of the PSM could have contributed to my ABS pump failure and then decided after replacing the ABS pump to run with the PSM off. I noticed even with the switch turned off, I was still getting some intrusion, particularly on bumpy surfaces and crests, this caused me to unplug the PSM pump which has completely disabled.

In the time since, my lap times have seen a slight decrease and the car is more enjoyable to drive. I spent a couple sessions on my home track getting a feeling for the new limits and won't be looking back.

My car has a lot of grip and not much power, so it's pretty easy to drive and I don't yet have the experience to drive at the pointy end of grip, at least for what my car is capable of.

MaxLTV

Very much depends on the car. For example, in 991.1 Turbo or BMW M2 - I needed to turn it off pretty much right away or otherwise the car would not rotate or give full power near the limit. On 991.2 Turbo S - the same story in the default PSM mode, but it also has "Track PSM" mode (turned on by a shorter press of PSM Off button) which works well enough for almost every scenario and can be kept on. On 991.2 RS - it needs turning off only when drifting or doing other hooligan things on purpose because otherwise it will not interfere when driving normally, even at 10/10 (rare exceptions are very bumpy tracks that can through it off), so I'd keep it on. Can't speak of other cars, but it's likely that non-GT and older cars have PSM that is not great near the limit, so turning it off will be beneficial, while the newer GT cars rarely benefit from turning it off.

But if your experience is only with it on, start with a skid pad or autocross-style course to make sure you do not have bad habits that rely on PSM - e.g., a common one is releasing brakes too late and too abruptly, causing oversteer conditions, which PSM hides very well by braking the outside front wheel a little. Or at least take it down a notch at first. In terms of experience - I'd say it's never too early or maybe wait until you are certain you know the track and lines and will not get startled by other cars.

awew911

ESC in my 991 GT3/GT3 RS's made me think I was a better driver than I was. After moving to a 991 Cup, I spun out more times in the first 3 months than I have in 10 years. When driving with ESC, you are programming your brain / hands to think what the car is doing is what your inputs are doing. It is NOT.

I've had to relearn a bunch of driving skills, and it is honestly much more fun and 'raw' without any nannies. It does come with added risk, but rewards a better driver. I've also picked up a Birel kart and that has helped tremendously.

BTW - I would not turn off my ESC/TC in my 19 3RS. Too expensive should something happen. Race car is cheaper to fix.

roadie13

My recommendation is to experiment with switching PSM off on tracks you know well and once you can feel it interfering with your driving, either because it cuts power at corner track-out or because your rear brakes are glowing red hot for no apparent reason

This is based on you having about 20 hours of experience of driving your car on track. But until you've also collected 20 hours of experience of driving in the rain keep PSM switched on in the rain!

Zhao

IMO 20 hours of drivers aids on in the rain is 20 hours of practicing and ingraining bad habits in regards to car control.

I enjoy tracking and racing in the rain immensely. All it does to me is lower the speed stuff happens at, imo the same stuff happens in the same way while putting less wear and tear on the vehicle. The only wild card is being able to adapt to changing track conditions as grip increases or lessens in spots, but if you're ever going to be fast this is something that you should look forward to happening rather than fearing it as it's good training for being able to keep the car on the edge of adhesion regardless of what is thrown at you.

Better to rip that bandaid off asap and learn proper car control. Just go slow and push in the spots that are safe to spin out until you're comfortable pushing other places. I understand being scared of very fast cars in the rain, but if I'm scared of a car in the rain I'd be scared of it in the dry too, maybe more so in the dry.

Tief Lernen

I found the PSM in my 718 Boxster S to be pretty good in "PSM Sport" mode (long press of the PSM button). It would seemingly only intervene at extreme yaw angles where your chance of manually recovering seemed slim anyway - and the car would just snap back into line.

I did a few sessions with it turned completely off and did not notice any change in the car's behavior, so I'm pretty sure I wasn't learning any bad habits from it.

In my 2021 718 GT4, there is no apparently no PSM Sport mode. Just the ability to turn ESC off and ESC off + TC off (I assume ESC = PSM?) And I find it is more intrusive on the track - i.e. I notice it interfering much earlier and in more mild conditions. However the car also has more power and I've gotten to be a faster driver, so it's not a direct comparison. I am nervous about turning ESC off entirely in the GT4 - I wish it had a "only save me if I really need it" mode, which is what I perceived PSM Sport in the Boxster to be.

txbdan

I'm not a pro by any stretch, but I've been doing track days for about 16 years and time trials for about six. Dabble in Lemons. I used to drive E30 and E36 track and race cars, so no stability control there. I'm on my second full season of time trials with the 981 Cayman S and I've been keeping PSM on. In Sport Plus mode, I don't find it very invasive. (In regular Sport mode it is terribly invasive, though.) It's pretty obvious when it steps in to save me and in those moments its pretty obvious I screwed up. If I'm driving right, I don't notice it. I was overall club driver's champion, won my class, and set a couple club/class track records so far. The car scoots good enough for me and I'm happy for the safety net considering I don't have any extra safety in the car and I'd rather not ball it up.

RobertR1

The systems in modern cars are a lot more seamless than older cars and I'd go far as to say that modern cars are being tuned for the electronics rather than having them added only as a safety cushion. In a perfect world, you'd have an older car with no assists in combination with a new car which is built around it's set of electronics. Then you still develop the pure car control while able more aware when electronics are helping you in a modern car.

Last_935

I agree. Back in the day, "Driver's Aides" were your hands, feet, eyes, ***, and brain; you had to use all those to drive a car fast and safely. You had no electronic nannies to override bad habits. IMHO, the reason people have issues, offs, and crashes when they turn off aides is that they have already developed bad habits that have previously been masked by computer intervention. When they turn them off and continue to drive in the same manor they get into trouble. If someone is constantly relying on electronic aides to intervene for them, they are probably doing something wrong or driving beyond the limits the car or themselves. I try to never rely on driver's aides and always turn off as many as I can when on the track. If someone wants to transition to driving with them off, I would suggest going out on the track and driving at 7 to 8/10's and working their way up to re-learn the cars limits, focusing on technique and the proper line. Or better yet, as mentioned above, spend some time in a car that was built without driver's aides.

LuigiVampa

Do some skid pad work, whether in your car or a rental car, to start getting a sense of how a car moves around. This will help you immensely as you wean yourself off the nannies.