Dirt Track Racer

Are you freakin kidding me? For those of us can heel and toe downshift accurately 100% of the time, in most cars with non race type gear boxes, we go through all the gears. Why not take a stupid poll about it? Sure, in sequential gearboxes, or real racing boxes, its fine to skip gears. You obvously don't skip gears in a sequential box, but you can usually bang through them much faster than a regular gearbox. You get the point. But cars with street gearboxes, you are just taking a risk of blowing up your motor. Its a lot easier to get the timing right when going through each gear since you have rhythm, then it is by skipping gears ***** nilly. I would propose if you are driving at 10/10ths, and you have time in a brake zone in a race or even a DE to accurately time a H&T and gear skip, you are either really good and should be racing professionally, or you are not actually driving at 10/10ths. Rather you are telling your online friends you are - hoping they will think you are the man.

jpm

Do the Ferrari's (or other F1s) have room for just two pedals with a hand operated clutch? In which case, LFB would be much more appropriate.

Sorry beg to differ again - it is entirely appropriate IMHO to skip gears on the way down what ever the car, because given the performance of modern brakes and tyres, speed is reduced in a very short distance.

DJ

That's the problem. You have all these nice theories, but you don't have the practical experience to speak with any real authority. There are some things I know, and some things I think, and I try my best not to confuse the two. You seem to "think" a lot of things that you "know" nothing about (in the practical sense), but you pretend like you "know". Theories are great, but don't always work out the way you think they will when you attempt to prove them emperically.

With a close-ratio gearbox, there's very little difference between one gear and the next. When I'm downshifting, I'm consistently letting clutch out within 100 rpms of redline. I'm not cruising around, trying to make it easy on myself, I'm trying to get every last thousandth of a second out of the car. Do that, and become proficient at it, then come back and tell me you know what you're talking about.


There are so many non-sequiters in that comment, that my only response is this:

DJ

Hey JPM,

No need to beg, nor to apologize for it. I think that this: "given the performance of modern brakes and tyres, speed is reduced in a very short distance" is where we differ. But mainly just a difference in perception. In my current race car (photo at left), I almost always skip gears, because I have to. The car weighs less than 1100 lbs., and will pull nearly 4 g's under braking from high speeds, so braking distances are really short. (I am usually picking up another gear after the point that you'd need to be hard on the brakes in the Porsche.) There's simply no time to get the clutch out between gears, because the braking zones are so short. Compared to driving any 911, the Porsche affords you tons of time to get your downshifts done (one at a time).

"Speed. Time. I'ts all relative."
- Einstein

Sun Ra

DJ,

with all the self righteous crap you give me, you still use my rabbit picture. value added for you eh? i got to bail you out with the real thing

forklift

The bunny rocks!

I see Color is back preaching his theories as fact. Hey Color, I would like to hear more from you after you finish your fourth DE!

Mike in Chi

Watt

What is that pancake doing on a gerbil?

prg

I realize I'm late to this party re PSM and Left Foot Braking. I was playing with left foot braking in my 03 996tt today. If I am on the throttle and THEN apply the brake, the throttle cuts out. However, if I am on the brake (with the left foot) and THEN ease the throttle on (like in a track LFB situation), the throttle remains functional without cutting out despite the fact that the brake is still depressed. This occurred without depressing the clutch pedal. I. E. you can left foot brake on the road track, but you can't use the brakes to build boost for a roll on contest. YMMV but this was the result of my experiment today.

Phil

Mike Mike Mike......
Did you mean "where did Watt put the gerbil"?

DJ

Your rabbit picture? I was under the impression that [the late] Oolong made his residence in Japan. I knew you got around, watt, but didn't think you got around that much...

Tim Comeau

Wow...............................................
What fun. I always like to read left foot braking discussions. It never ceases to be entertaining when I read about people's differing opinions at this "black magic level" of driving techniques.
Anyway, started reading the thread, amd the replies from Redline man, and I thought, "Hmmmm, this guy is right about everything he says, PLUS he's explaining it VERY well." Refreshing. Kind of sounds like the writing of this guy who used to be featured in our San Diego newsletter when Skip Carter was the editor. His name was something like hajjie (Johnny Quest's friend). Scrolled to the bottom and what do you know.........John Hajny.
Nice writing John. And in my opinion, you ARE right on. I use the same techniques and do the same pedal hopping. I even want to shoot the same video of the pedal box!!

For any new drivers who still disagree, Left foot braking is deadly efficient. While you're switching pedals with your right foot, which costs at least 1/10th of a second everytime you do it, I'm catching up.


Also, I didn't understand that "neutral" phase being talked about. Is that coasting? If so, there's no coasting in road racing. You threshold brake, fade to trail braking, then roll on the throttle, hopefully in a seamless flowing ballet.
also, we don't double clutch in a synchromesh tranny. That's for pure racing gearboxes with straight cut gears. We just heel and toe.

Another point, "Never do 2 downshifts. Wait til you're at the right speed, then grab only the exit gear." WRONG. What if you're in neutral, in the braking zone with several other drivers, and 1 or 2 start to spin. You need to grab a quick handfull of left or right, and you've got no throttle to recover from that initial violent evasive action.

I, on the other hand, am running down through the gears while braking, (not using the gearbox to slow the car) and I'm ready to use the throttle to get me out of the bad situation. I match revs well enough so that if you were in the passenger seat, you wouldn't even feel the downshifts. That enables me to go to throttle at any time in 4th or 3rd or 2nd as I'm braking hard.
Anyway, this post is long enough for now. I'd like to share some LFB exercises that have helped me to be a winning driver. Kinda tired right now. I'll go check the coffee pot.
Once again, Nice writing John. Listen and learn!

Tim Comeau

OK, I found some old diet pepsi. I can run on just about any octane...................
So here's some info from a guy who's been driving/racing for almost 20 years. Take from it what you will. This is for advanced drivers. If you can't heel and toe yet, work on that first, assumimg you already know how to disect a course and drive the line.
Anyway, If you're racing and you're not LFB'ing. You're not getting around the track as EFFICIENTLY as you could be. You're wasting time and guess what's the most important thing in racing? TIME!
In my world, 1 second is forever.........(That's the title of my new book.)
I use LFB extensively. I even occasionally use it for threshold braking. More about that later.
As I said, LFB is deadly efficient in turns between turns. In our 944-spec cars, which are very equal, when I'm chasing another driver through a series of turns which require some braking but no downshifting, you can see me gain on the guy in front of me everytime our brake lights come on. Why? Because he's wasting time coming off the throttle, moving his right foot over to the brake pedal, pushing the brake pedal down to it's effective level, coming back off the brake, switching back to the gas............yadda yadda. Inefficient. What a silly waste of time. How much time? A 10th? Do that through 5 turns in 1 lap and I'm up a half second on you. You can bet we'll be side by side in the next braking zone, then bye-bye!
The biggest reason why drivers don't use this technique is that they aren't comfortable with it. In the beginning, it can slow you more than help you. But just like heel and toeing, once you learn the new technique, which in this case is mostly "sensitivity", you'll be quicker, I promise. Practice on the street.
To that end, here's some exercises that you can do to learn left foot sensitivity quicker. Please do it safely...........

1. Start using your left foot to stop the car at every stop sign and stop light. Don't worry about the gears, just push in the clutch and come to a gradual stop like normal. You'll probably almost go through the windshield on your first couple attempts. Don't worry, it gets better quick. Kinda like the first time I tried sex. I had that same scared look in my eyes that you do right now......
You need to get pretty good before you take it to the track.

2. Credit for this one goes to Alan Johnson. As your coming to a stop, you're loading up the front springs ,right? The car is leaning forward under decelleration. As you slow down more and more you'll find you need less and less brake pedal pressure. Normally, you can tell when you've come to a complete stop because the car rocks backwards as the springs come back to static load. See if you can lessen the brake pedal pressure, using your LEFT foot, gradually so that you come back to the static (level) load and don't ever feel the car rock backwards. The nose of the car starts out level, dips under left foot braking, then comes up level again, but no rocking!

3. I still do this occasionally on the street. As you're coming to a gradual stop with a car in front of you, who's also coming to a gradual stop, use your left foot on the brakes and try to maintain the same SAFE gap between the 2 cars. This means you're trying to exactly match his decelleration rate. You'll have to brake at varying rates to maintain the gap, and no 2 drivers brake the same, so it's a fresh exercise every time. You should both come to a stop at the same time. The guy in front of you will be none the wiser, unharmed, and you'll be getting free lessons on the way to and from work.

4. On really fast HAIRY kinks where I need just a little braking, and too much would cause a high speed spin out, I use this technique. To ensure that I don't put too much pressure on the brakes, though subconciously I might want to, I twist my left foot over at the ankle and apply the brakes with only my left pinkie toe. Kinda like starting to sprain your ankle? And what do you know, if I start to push too hard, it hurts! Just like spraining your ankle! In the heat of battle, it's easy to overdo things, this keeps my excitement and driving inputs in check.

Also, you're going to find that some of the left foot sensitivity gained will transfer to the right foot threshold braking. In other words, you'll become more sensitive overall to braking forces and sounds.

I'll discuss left foot threshold braking only if someone's interested.
I hope this is helpful to other Porsche drivers who are more junior in experience only, than me. That's my only purpose in taking the time to write this. Lots of older guys helped me for free. Pass it on.
Cheers!

Mark in Baltimore

Four DE's? Is this true, Color?

forklift

Three as of 2/27/04, from Color, "Geez Brian after reading this thread you think I have a thin skin? No problem. Now, get ready to laugh.

I have been to 3 DE events and done 3 go kart races. I am not offended by the question it is just that uninformed people associate experience with intelligence/correctness, and this is sadly the case in racing. Now read the leering and laughing you will see at my near complete lack of experience, without them ever looking at my DAS data and wihtout them ever addressing my Milliken quotes and finding any techincal flaws with my arguments."

Please see, https://rennlist.com/forums/showthre...&pagenumber=18 about halfway down the page.

Usually I would not bring something like this up, but his arrogance is unmatched by anyone I have ever .....read. I have traded messages with a few very experienced drivers on this board who see the real problem of speaking as fact with so little experience could be dangerous for someone looking for advice here and reading his comments as fact (as they are presented).

Just for the record, I know I am a beginner (only 7 DEs) and don't pretend to be an expert. I am here to read and learn, and appreciate the advice given by (more) qualified drivers and instructors. I read books on driving as well, but realize that without putting that knowledge to use.....it is almost useless, and my book knowledge does not make me an expert.

Mark in Baltimore

Fork,

Thanks. I had a feeling the theory was backed with little experience, speed or podiums. For words to have validity here, I think one of the previous criteria needs to be met. In reading some of the other threads on cornering, my thought was, "Too much talk and too much theory. Just get out there and drive."

Herein lies the danger of the internet with all of the "experts" out there...

BTW, will you be at the Zone 2 DE at VIR?