Self-Policing Club Race Behavior: And Idea
10-01-2019, 12:30 PM
#31
WRONGLY ACCUSED!
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Villifying people regarding 13/13 decisions made, points race eligibility or not, without published, written guidelines on how those are decisions are to be made, transparency on what has happened in incidents deemed to be 13/13 (without names), and an appeal system that's fair (in some cases the appeal goes to the same guy who gave it to you), that's a kangaroo court.
If you want the driver to improve, if it is warranted, shaming them out of PCA racing is not the way to do it. Some of the drivers causing mayhem never hit anyone. Some of the people with 13/13s have been racing for 20 years without ever getting one, or others will get one and then never get one again. Right now without having to think, I can name four drivers who have had 13/13s that I would put my car next to any day of the week, even a day after their so called at fault incidents.
If you want the driver to improve, if it is warranted, shaming them out of PCA racing is not the way to do it. Some of the drivers causing mayhem never hit anyone. Some of the people with 13/13s have been racing for 20 years without ever getting one, or others will get one and then never get one again. Right now without having to think, I can name four drivers who have had 13/13s that I would put my car next to any day of the week, even a day after their so called at fault incidents.
I can't tell you how many times I have gotten to turn 1 at the start of a race where I am trying to push the brake pedal through the fire wall, pleading with the car to stop, because I misjudged how quickly things would stack up. A lack of a 13 can be attributed to a combination of heads-up driving and luck.
There is no shame in a 13, and I am not advocating making public what caused the 13, but I think that the existence of a 13 should be public knowledge. People in the hunt for the national championship should be aware so that they can make informed choices about how many races they need to compete in, and I do believe that it can act as a check and balance for our racing community.
10-01-2019, 12:43 PM
#32
Having a weekend event where mandatory attendance at a post race social get together for all drivers is a proactive way for everyone to get to know each other.
Just knowing the other person helps when dealing with incidents.
Just knowing the other person helps when dealing with incidents.
10-01-2019, 01:33 PM
#33
I'm in....
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Rennlist Member
I can't tell you how many times I've lost positions in turn 1 because I don't want to be "that guy" but I'm totally OK with that.
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trygve (10-01-2019)
10-01-2019, 03:08 PM
#34
WRONGLY ACCUSED!
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
10-01-2019, 05:20 PM
#35
This era in PCA racing, unfortunately, is not my first rodeo, and I have spoken with many drivers, so I can say, yes, I have seen the "receipts," and appeals have gone to the same guy who originally gave out the 13. Now I don't want to mention the powers-that-be-or-were's names....And secondarily, from my fellow drivers in my purview, not one appeal has ever been granted.
10-01-2019, 05:32 PM
#36
And separately, on the issue of passes under yellow, only those that can be tracked via timing and scoring at start-finish are ever corrected. In some cases it's the pass location being far from the tubs, but in other cases, workers need to be trained and trained; again, I've been in the tub many times, and it's a lot going on (and then periods of nothing). We all needed refreshers, particularly on how to properly watch all directions among the team, and see everything, and what extra things to watch and report under yellow. The "no-passing zone" IMO is also not intuitive nor well known for workers or drivers, alike.
But yes, passing under yellow goes uncorrected many times, and it's been an issue for a long number of years.
But yes, passing under yellow goes uncorrected many times, and it's been an issue for a long number of years.
10-02-2019, 09:15 AM
#37
Perfect Angel
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Thank you West for chiming in (sucking up before I go to Daytona 
). It's worth noting that the stewards do have to prioritize their incident response. While most of us are Type A and generally expect a certain immediacy of response remember that the stews may just be working thru the latest 18 car pile up for the Red group fun race so "this guy drives like a dick" may not get the priority you hope.
Now as for the points races and knowing who is eligible, I've been advocating this for years! It maybe an easy fix: there is an eligibility button on Rennpoints that when clicked lets you see who has enough races to be eligible, can that button be modified (I'm not a software engineer) to also include 13 information? That would be a task for Bryan P who has diligently administered Rennpoints from it's inception. Maybe that would have to be done manually?
I do agree that that information is genuinely necessary. A race weekend costs thousands and maybe the guy 2 points ahead of me is on a 13 and I don't need to spend thousands to chase 2 points. The racing is always fun but we all have our limits of time and money and family obligations.
As for the stews and the national staff at Daytona, you all are the best! Preemptively!
). It's worth noting that the stewards do have to prioritize their incident response. While most of us are Type A and generally expect a certain immediacy of response remember that the stews may just be working thru the latest 18 car pile up for the Red group fun race so "this guy drives like a dick" may not get the priority you hope.Now as for the points races and knowing who is eligible, I've been advocating this for years! It maybe an easy fix: there is an eligibility button on Rennpoints that when clicked lets you see who has enough races to be eligible, can that button be modified (I'm not a software engineer) to also include 13 information? That would be a task for Bryan P who has diligently administered Rennpoints from it's inception. Maybe that would have to be done manually?
I do agree that that information is genuinely necessary. A race weekend costs thousands and maybe the guy 2 points ahead of me is on a 13 and I don't need to spend thousands to chase 2 points. The racing is always fun but we all have our limits of time and money and family obligations.
As for the stews and the national staff at Daytona, you all are the best! Preemptively!
Last edited by Streak; 10-03-2019 at 07:50 AM.
10-02-2019, 09:24 PM
#38
Nordschleife Master
Thread Starter
this is not my experience. I’ve brought video of passes under yellow and the driver has been docked the laps, even if I managed to regained the position the very next green turn.
10-02-2019, 11:15 PM
#39
Rennlist Member
Maybe he passed you by mistake, before realizing it was yellow, then let you regain position under green.
10-03-2019, 08:02 AM
#40
WRONGLY ACCUSED!
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
10-03-2019, 09:05 AM
#41
After reading about some NCAA athletes' activities, instead of this racer committee being a punitive one it could represent drivers in a more positive way.
Right now there's no avenue to propose or change rules related to anything other than the cars and their specs.
The committee could do a wide range of things: to survey drivers for their opinions (similar to how regions survey them, but for example, find out why racers choose PCA or leave), make recommendations on policies, and even, mentor drivers. Some ideas could be things such as to make recommendations on: developing policies. such as on rough driving; developing a bill of rights/due process for racers involved in incidents; seeking transparency regarding incidents; implementing an application program and credentialing for stewards, getting documentation published (other stuff does not matter without this); and helping new racers with skills mentorship or questions about how to classify a car, etc.
Because it's apparent there's a communication void, or some might say a disconnect, between some racers' experiences, and how some others, perhaps in leadership, have experienced the program.
Right now there's no avenue to propose or change rules related to anything other than the cars and their specs.
The committee could do a wide range of things: to survey drivers for their opinions (similar to how regions survey them, but for example, find out why racers choose PCA or leave), make recommendations on policies, and even, mentor drivers. Some ideas could be things such as to make recommendations on: developing policies. such as on rough driving; developing a bill of rights/due process for racers involved in incidents; seeking transparency regarding incidents; implementing an application program and credentialing for stewards, getting documentation published (other stuff does not matter without this); and helping new racers with skills mentorship or questions about how to classify a car, etc.
Because it's apparent there's a communication void, or some might say a disconnect, between some racers' experiences, and how some others, perhaps in leadership, have experienced the program.
10-03-2019, 09:42 AM
#42
Drifting
All the threads discussing questionable driving in club races got me thinking about how we can collectively solve. Here’s one potential suggestion.
We create a “Complaints Committee” made up of 7 active racers. The committee members would need a certain number of minimum races to be eligible to serve on the board (maybe something like 50+). Racers could submit a complaint, with video, about aggressive driving, blocking, dive bombing, etc. The committee would contact the other racer(s) involved to attempt to get their video. The committee would review the videos and take simple majority vote. If the complaint passed, the offending driver would be put on a watchlist. The watchlist would be distributed to the Stewards before each race. If the racer had 2 or more complaints in a given year, the committee would take a vote on recommending giving a 13 to the driver; note the club race chair would have ultimate decision making for the 13, this would merely be a recommendation.
Ideally the proceedings form the committee would be fully public, e.g. the videos would be posted and the committee’s ruling with the logic behind that ruling, would be published for all to see. This would help form a set of decisions that other racers could learn from.
There could also be a process for repeat offenders over multiple years.
My thought is this would help put in a process to “self police” the bad behavior out there. The stewards already have enough to do, so we can’t realistically expect this to get solved at the race. But having a process like this might, over time, start to take care of the problem children. At a bare minimum it would give some sort of feedback mechanism for folks. I know that if I did something that 7 peer racers thought was over the line, I would take that seriously.
Note, this would not be a forum for re-ajudicating stewards decisions on 13s.
If folks like this idea, I could submit to PCA as a suggestion.
We create a “Complaints Committee” made up of 7 active racers. The committee members would need a certain number of minimum races to be eligible to serve on the board (maybe something like 50+). Racers could submit a complaint, with video, about aggressive driving, blocking, dive bombing, etc. The committee would contact the other racer(s) involved to attempt to get their video. The committee would review the videos and take simple majority vote. If the complaint passed, the offending driver would be put on a watchlist. The watchlist would be distributed to the Stewards before each race. If the racer had 2 or more complaints in a given year, the committee would take a vote on recommending giving a 13 to the driver; note the club race chair would have ultimate decision making for the 13, this would merely be a recommendation.
Ideally the proceedings form the committee would be fully public, e.g. the videos would be posted and the committee’s ruling with the logic behind that ruling, would be published for all to see. This would help form a set of decisions that other racers could learn from.
There could also be a process for repeat offenders over multiple years.
My thought is this would help put in a process to “self police” the bad behavior out there. The stewards already have enough to do, so we can’t realistically expect this to get solved at the race. But having a process like this might, over time, start to take care of the problem children. At a bare minimum it would give some sort of feedback mechanism for folks. I know that if I did something that 7 peer racers thought was over the line, I would take that seriously.
Note, this would not be a forum for re-ajudicating stewards decisions on 13s.
If folks like this idea, I could submit to PCA as a suggestion.
Last edited by FredC; 10-03-2019 at 10:01 AM.
10-03-2019, 09:49 AM
#43
WRONGLY ACCUSED!
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
After reading about some NCAA athletes' activities, instead of this racer committee being a punitive one it could represent drivers in a more positive way.
Right now there's no avenue to propose or change rules related to anything other than the cars and their specs.
The committee could do a wide range of things: to survey drivers for their opinions (similar to how regions survey them, but for example, find out why racers choose PCA or leave), make recommendations on policies, and even, mentor drivers. Some ideas could be things such as to make recommendations on: developing policies. such as on rough driving; developing a bill of rights/due process for racers involved in incidents; seeking transparency regarding incidents; implementing an application program and credentialing for stewards, getting documentation published (other stuff does not matter without this); and helping new racers with skills mentorship or questions about how to classify a car, etc.
Because it's apparent there's a communication void, or some might say a disconnect, between some racers' experiences, and how some others, perhaps in leadership, have experienced the program.
Right now there's no avenue to propose or change rules related to anything other than the cars and their specs.
The committee could do a wide range of things: to survey drivers for their opinions (similar to how regions survey them, but for example, find out why racers choose PCA or leave), make recommendations on policies, and even, mentor drivers. Some ideas could be things such as to make recommendations on: developing policies. such as on rough driving; developing a bill of rights/due process for racers involved in incidents; seeking transparency regarding incidents; implementing an application program and credentialing for stewards, getting documentation published (other stuff does not matter without this); and helping new racers with skills mentorship or questions about how to classify a car, etc.
Because it's apparent there's a communication void, or some might say a disconnect, between some racers' experiences, and how some others, perhaps in leadership, have experienced the program.
I'm thinking the idea of video conferencing, and streamlining various processes for adjudication, is doable if an overly complicated system is not created. Keep it simple and it may get traction and provide some good.
10-03-2019, 10:30 AM
#44
Three Wheelin'
I'd guess it wouldn't be too hard to find a group of active racers who would be willing to contribute their time to an initiative like this if the overhead isn't too high. And the committee could consist of, say, 10 or 12 drivers, with a quorum of something like 7 needed for meetings where any decisions are being made, to keep the time commitment reasonable.
10-03-2019, 03:32 PM
#45
Rennlist Member
Colin makes a good suggestion. May I offer another one?
The same concept, except the "committee" (I hate that word) is made up of 3 or 5 professional coaches. There are plenty of us who work often with PCA racers. To avoid conflicts of interest, if one of the committee members is coaching a racer involved in a dispute the committee has been asked to adjudicate, he or she is recused.
This would bring a different level of experience to the table, and would also remove any perception of an old boys' club.
The same concept, except the "committee" (I hate that word) is made up of 3 or 5 professional coaches. There are plenty of us who work often with PCA racers. To avoid conflicts of interest, if one of the committee members is coaching a racer involved in a dispute the committee has been asked to adjudicate, he or she is recused.
This would bring a different level of experience to the table, and would also remove any perception of an old boys' club.