ProCoach

Maybe it’s self selecting, but 95% of the people I talk to and interact with at the track are looking to improve.

Most of them have been at it long enough that they have already been through a few “learning plateaus.”

A few of them are already aware that even though they can “drive harder,” that strategy becomes counterproductive in a hurry, sometimes with catastrophic results.

It’s up to the organization, pre-event materials, drivers meeting briefing, classroom instructor(s), instructor in the car and establishing an event culture that makes sure the desired outcome can be achieved by adding knowledge, encouraging continuous learning and making sure their participants stay safe.

It sounds like the OP was part of an organization that subscribes to this credo, but that one or more participants were on their own program.

Their own program was incompatible with the event’s culture and requirements. It sounds like it got fixed, somehow.

But to blame this errant behavior on a device is short sighted and ignores the fact that the driver IS RESPONSIBLE for EVERYTHING in the car, on the track.

This “personal responsibility” is the bond that is supposed to keep us safe. That needs to be stressed.

The person or persons involved with this errant behavior shirked this fundamental responsibility, sounds like...

sbelles

Um, No. Please don't! Courtesy and safety may look a little different in club racing by they should still be a priority.

erko1905

Something must've happened at NNJR Thunderbolt this weekend? I'm guessing it was in the Black group from Bruce's post? I'd love to hear more about it, half the fun of this stuff is the drama

Blue/White was fantastically respectful, I know some people who are Black drivers running in Blue/White who just don't want to deal with the hustle & bustle in Black/Red, might be car speed, might be his mood that weekend, but one can always run a group down to take things more slowly? To Akunob's comment, I would think if you're in Black & Red, you do owe the field the situational awareness if not some semblance of pace to keep things moving, otherwise why are you in that run group?

To Peter's comment, I found more often than not instructors do not like any lap timer or data device, so much so that I gave up asking. I just do pure homework when I'm out with an instructor, and only run a timer when I'm running solo.

I've been grinning since I came back from Tbolt because of a new personal best this weekend so I don't think I'll stop chasing lap times anytime soon, hopefully that doesn't get me banned. Thinking about the weekend's achievements does help with the Monday blues after a track weekend.

dgrobs

delete

dgrobs

Nope. Black run group these past 2 days was fine. Great people, great respect, great time.

That being said, I'm not sure posting specific events and specific regions and specific run groups is the right thing to do here. Just a thought....

erko1905

Yeah, I know People are sensitive these days. Ignore me, carry on

ProCoach

If the OP can make this a "teachable moment," it might very well be...

dgrobs

Might very well be what? OK to post specific region and specific event and specific run group and specific driver info?

ProCoach

A teachable moment. That's what, Bruce.

The real question is "what can be learned here?"

This is not a "blame game." Sounds like an example that may help others avoid the pitfalls of whatever was so obvious that the OP found a need to post and that you found a need to corroborate, before drawing back...

It also sounds like it was handled well by the organizers, at least in the meeting on the morning of the second day.

The topic, the question posted by the OP, is misleading. There've been no facts presented to support an affirmative answer to the question he posed, only veiled allusions of bad behavior on-track.

gbuff

In the dry, I time, with the emphasis being on consistency, repeatability, and if the stars line up, a new PB

In the wet, I do not time, with the emphasis being on survival and having the ability to drive the car home.

Timing or no timing, I've found after (too) many years of this "hobby" that sooner or later you're going to have behavior as described by the OP--hell, I've been guilty of it myself, especially when I work my a$$ off to catch a faster car up, then get no point. Then the chant begins; "Gary, we're not racing........" and so on.

To me, timing laps is akin to keeping score on the golf course--one way to chart improvement, whether it be with your score or how much farther you can throw your putter.....

Gary

Deansdream

I think specific incidents are best dealt with at the event with the chiefs, not in a public forum. And I've actually been thinking about the possible ill effects of timing for awhile. I don't want to blame the equipment; obviously, it's how you use it. And Lord knows, you can be a jerk with or without timing. The point is, we've all seen bad behavior. I just think the emphasis on lap times that a timer provides can be a contributing factor. And that those using them need to remember to put courtesy and safety first.

ProCoach

Fair enough.

I'm fortunate in that I don't know or are aware of drivers that abdicate courtesy, safety and good judgment for one reason over any another, and especially due to any devices in the car. And I've worked with thousands of drivers in an HPDE setting...

I think the problem is MUCH deeper than something this topical. It's a change in the culture, the cars and the sense of entitlement that distills every individual sporting effort as a competition, even in venues when that is discouraged, even prohibited.

This is something that's been headed this way for a long time...

ProCoach

I attended three days of the very good FSR-PCA event at VIR a week ago, and honestly, even though the organizers are among the best, the pre-event info stressed all the right stuff, the drivers meeting covered everything in detail, including a detailed flag talk and there were a number of incidents. Quite a few, actually. I think this is a real concern for all clubs.

Manifold

I think that use of timing devices could affect different drivers differently, and even affect the same driver differently at different times. Sometimes it could lead to more aggressive and risky driving, and sometimes it could lead to more disciplined and precise driving with lower risk.

Personally, I get lap times for only a fraction of my laps. Sometimes I just want to have fun and do laps, and am not interested in my lap times. Other times, I'm interested in my lap times and trying to improve, and I want the data to help me improve (or at least record my better laps!).

I generally prefer that students not run a lap timer with me in the right seat, because I want them focus on our instructional interaction without being distracted by what the lap timer is recording. But when coaching advanced drivers, it seems like lap timing is almost a necessity.

Der ABT

As for specifics....dont need names etc.....just set up what happened so we can understand what your talking about, like passing without a point by and using the excuse i had a fast lap, or blew a checker for 1 last lap etc...dont need region or track......again trying to raise awareness and teach from it

You state you already have a negative opinion on laptimers, but say you dont want to blame them.....seems like you do want to blame them and are looking for an agreement.

How do you feel about horsepower? Plenty of hp hungry overly aggresive drivers that learn the hard way to respect it.
What about Nannies? Is it letting people with bad habbits get promoted because the car is hiding their mistakes?
What about video, someone trying to make a sweet video for their youtube following?

Laptimes can show consistency of a driver,
Predictive laptiming is a priceless tool to show if you improved on a corner throughout a lap regardless of overall laptime
Sector times can show where you need to focus

Its all driver development, just so happens it correlates with lower laptimes.

I am biased as i use data ALOT to help improve drivers, racing and DE..... and i agree with most others in this thread.....it has nothing to do with laptimers....

these same bad actors would have done something wrong for some other reason if there were no laptimers.