Instructor killed at PBIR April 16 2019
04-24-2019, 09:52 PM
#121
WRONGLY ACCUSED!
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I am thankful I have never felt compelled to employ this technique in the face of disaster. That said, my 20 years also at the track and coaching has taught me one over arching truism about this wonderful sport: there is more than one way to skin every possible permutation of cat. To say that, because one person wouldn't do it, therefore it should never be done, is just plain silly. And this applies to pretty much anything in racing
In this thread, this is a silly, petty little argument... Doesn't bring him back.
I'm with you, VR. It all goes out the window when it's you in the seat with no pedals or wheel in front of you.
I've had only a few moments when I thought I was going to get badly hurt in thirty-plus years of paying clients...
The odds are NOT getting better, and I was very lucky.
I'm with you, VR. It all goes out the window when it's you in the seat with no pedals or wheel in front of you.
I've had only a few moments when I thought I was going to get badly hurt in thirty-plus years of paying clients...
The odds are NOT getting better, and I was very lucky.
04-24-2019, 11:23 PM
#122
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When to grab the wheel of a student.
1. in a spin
2. about to hit wall
3. two wheels off
4. to teach apex line
To think you are going to change the outcome in 1-2 is a fantasy.
3-4 rare, but maybe. I would never in 4. But could see an instance in 3. Many have stated the same.
40 years racing motorcycles, cars, boats and SCCA licensed, POC licensed, PCA Instructor.
Over and out.
04-24-2019, 11:33 PM
#124
SmH
P.S.
Disclaimer
I've been in a car with an instructor who grabbed the steering wheel in mid turn. He accused me of stab double braking and upsetting the car and the line because my PDK decided to downshift in that corner every lap. I fired him.
04-25-2019, 09:47 AM
#125
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I haven't seen that happening much. But organizations should certainly share ideas and try to learn from each other, so that best practices become widely known and adopted.
04-25-2019, 09:57 AM
#126
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04-25-2019, 10:18 AM
#127
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Potomac is great (known and have been teaching with some of the senior guys since 1989), but they are not the be-all, end-all, IMO.No one is. Not even people that make a majority of their income from DOING JUST THIS (and have for decades) are... The craft and practice, not to mention the execution, can ALWAYS be improved...
That said, I see some more progressive individual regions/chapters/groups reevaluating their "best practices" in light of more experience/data/outcomes, to GOOD effect! Most notably, Hill Country Region PCA, Niagara Region PCA and NASA-Great Lakes Region stand out to me.
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04-25-2019, 10:26 AM
#128
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FWIW, my best DE experience, both driving and instructing, has been with Chin.
04-25-2019, 10:30 AM
#129
Burning Brakes
standardization is what motorsport safety foundation is trying to accomplish. they talk about instructor taking wheel in their course too
04-25-2019, 10:34 AM
#130
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I agree, I don't hold Potomac out to be a model for everyone else to follow. I used Potomac mainly as a counterexample to the ideas that PCA generally frowns on grabbing the wheel and that organizations don't teach that practice to instructors.
FWIW, my best DE experience, both driving and instructing, has been with Chin.
FWIW, my best DE experience, both driving and instructing, has been with Chin.
Follows what VR said, "there are a million ways to skin a cat..." Certainly, the more I have done this, the less I know for ABSOLUTE sure...
I have read and listened to a lot of strong regional/chapter folks saying "PCA generally frowns upon..." or "BMWCCA generally frowns upon..." as if the National leadership and DEC members are somehow this nameless, faceless (and clueless?) entity.
I haven't found that to be the case. Most of the folks serving in a national capacity want to be a better resource to those in the field, the local regions and chapters. There isn't enough (or at least, consistent) dialog between CI's, Regional DEC members and the national groups their charter is held under, IMO. I'll add that I've seen some incredibly rigid, trenchant Region CI's and committees rejecting outright any possibility that their program can be improved...
Certainly Mark and Maria, as well as their talented staff, are a leading light in this discipline, for sure.
04-25-2019, 10:57 AM
#131
Maybe we can start a poll.
When to grab the wheel of a student.
1. in a spin
2. about to hit wall
3. two wheels off
4. to teach apex line
To think you are going to change the outcome in 1-2 is a fantasy.
3-4 rare, but maybe. I would never in 4. But could see an instance in 3. Many have stated the same.
40 years racing motorcycles, cars, boats and SCCA licensed, POC licensed, PCA Instructor.
Over and out.
When to grab the wheel of a student.
1. in a spin
2. about to hit wall
3. two wheels off
4. to teach apex line
To think you are going to change the outcome in 1-2 is a fantasy.
3-4 rare, but maybe. I would never in 4. But could see an instance in 3. Many have stated the same.
40 years racing motorcycles, cars, boats and SCCA licensed, POC licensed, PCA Instructor.
Over and out.
04-25-2019, 09:08 PM
#132
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1. PCA written curriculum does not teach instructor steering wheel input
2. Motorsports Safety Association does not teach instructor steering wheel input
I have spoken with and confirmed which each.
Liability is the main rationale along with lack of ability to mitigate off course damage once "off track"
That said each body does leave it to the instructor as, for example;
1. student passes out
2. student panics and hands come off wheel
3. instructor believes his/her life is in danger and grabs wheel in a hail mary attempt
These two leading sanctioning bodies recognises there may be rare occurrences that instructor must make split second decisions and these were the examples used. But again, they dont teach instructor steering wheel right seat input.
Be smart and drive smooth.
2. Motorsports Safety Association does not teach instructor steering wheel input
I have spoken with and confirmed which each.
Liability is the main rationale along with lack of ability to mitigate off course damage once "off track"
That said each body does leave it to the instructor as, for example;
1. student passes out
2. student panics and hands come off wheel
3. instructor believes his/her life is in danger and grabs wheel in a hail mary attempt
These two leading sanctioning bodies recognises there may be rare occurrences that instructor must make split second decisions and these were the examples used. But again, they dont teach instructor steering wheel right seat input.
Be smart and drive smooth.
04-25-2019, 10:28 PM
#133
1. PCA written curriculum does not teach instructor steering wheel input
2. Motorsports Safety Association does not teach instructor steering wheel input
I have spoken with and confirmed which each.
Liability is the main rationale along with lack of ability to mitigate off course damage once "off track"
That said each body does leave it to the instructor as, for example;
1. student passes out
2. student panics and hands come off wheel
3. instructor believes his/her life is in danger and grabs wheel in a hail mary attempt
These two leading sanctioning bodies recognises there may be rare occurrences that instructor must make split second decisions and these were the examples used. But again, they dont teach instructor steering wheel right seat input.
Be smart and drive smooth.
2. Motorsports Safety Association does not teach instructor steering wheel input
I have spoken with and confirmed which each.
Liability is the main rationale along with lack of ability to mitigate off course damage once "off track"
That said each body does leave it to the instructor as, for example;
1. student passes out
2. student panics and hands come off wheel
3. instructor believes his/her life is in danger and grabs wheel in a hail mary attempt
These two leading sanctioning bodies recognises there may be rare occurrences that instructor must make split second decisions and these were the examples used. But again, they dont teach instructor steering wheel right seat input.
Be smart and drive smooth.
You just continue and won't take a different view point. Fine! You want to do it then do it. You won't win this gospel argument you are fostering.
04-26-2019, 11:51 AM
#135
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This is about education, facts and safety.
You can share opinion just dont post it as a fact.
Thats all.