Carrera51

Very sad to hear this. My condolences to his family and friends.

JWILLI

I am new to HPDE and at Mid-Ohio last year, my instructor grabbed the wheel to give it a quick jerk. Afterwards, my friend said what was said here before, that he would have beaten the man but to be honest, I am glad he did. I had no idea what I was doing and it is both of our butts in the car, not just me. I only wished he gave me a warning before we started that he would take that corrective action. It was unnerving the first time he did it.

The best instruction he gave me was to sit my butt in the passenger seat and throw the car around the track. I learned much more in those few laps than I otherwise would have.

95spiderman

i instruct for many varied groups and they are pretty consistent in advice re instructor touching wheel. just discuss it 1st w student so no surprise. can do it as teaching and/or emergency situations only based on discussion.

btw, as a novice driver 20 yrs ago an instructor just reached out and grabbed wheel on the downhill at limerock out of blue. he did it to show me how to get in tight to the apex. worked well but shouldnt have done it as a surprise. couldve been disaster.

sbelles

You should let all the local clubs in on your threat to assault their instructors. Not everybody reads Rennlist.

fast1

If there's one thing that I learned by following this thread, it's that there are a hell of a lot of really nice and unselfish guys on this forum. The fact that so many are willing to give up their time and take the risks of providing right seat instruction is extraordinary.
I do however have a question and please don't take this as implicit criticism, since it's certainly not my intention. My question involves the instructor grabbing the wheel to prevent an accident. Although I never instructed, I did participate in SCCA racing for nearly a decade and had my share of accidents and near misses. When I did get into trouble, it typically involved using the steering wheel, accelerator, and brake to regain control. Just trying to understand how just grabbing the steering wheel alone would be helpful, absent some medical condition where the driver loses consciousness. Again my experience in the right seat is zero. I just don't think I'd have the courage to do it. Hell, when I was racing it was frightening enough to be on the same track with some drivers, much less be in the same car with them.

Manifold

"Beat down" seems a bit extreme, no? When I was a student, I had an instructor grab my wheel without prior notice, and yes I was irritated, but not to that degree. I learned from that experience that I need to prep students before grabbing their wheel, and with that prep, there have been no issues at all.

Keeping the wheel straight when the student goes off is the main application. Verbal commands won't always work because things happen fast and the student will tend to react based on instinct. When off the track, the instinct is to get back on track ASAP, and that happens with experienced drivers too.

I don't think anyone has been saying that grabbing the wheel should be done frequently or is appropriate for most emergencies. Only that it can be a very useful tool, beyond the instructor's voice, when the situation calls for it. Given the risk of being in the right seat, why not have more safety tools available?

You may not have heard of programs teaching wheel grabs before, but you have now.

95spiderman

mostly talking about novice drivers who simply have no clue what so ever. they are not about to use brakes, gas, or steering to correct the situation. they will look right where they do not want to go, ie the wall, and steer straight into it. a little 'help' with the wheel from instructor can go long way. obviously different if coaching an advanced driver vs instructing a novice.

Veloce Raptor

Or that the driver went for the brake and hit the gas. And then froze.

Veloce Raptor

Agreed. What a comical threat to make.
I concur on discussing with a driver first. However, if I grab the wheel to avert imminent peril for myself and the driver, I assure you the only thing you'll be beating afterwards is an untimely demise, and perhaps your meat.

Save the threats for someone who is impressed.

ProCoach

And that is EXACTLY what I meant by "software" problem... Seen it too many times...

Veloce Raptor

Ohhh. Sorry I thought you literally meant with the car computer software.

Yes, same

alexaqui

I'm not a novice driver and I had an instructor grab my wheel to show me some nuances to the line and turn-in and even track out to increase slip angle, etc.. I found it super helpful and it was discussed before hand. These were called "tweaks" to find some missing speed here and there...

RIP to the instructor. Horrible to read about in every way. This is a dangerous sport and I appreciate the effort and risk all instructors assume by getting in the right seat. I always try to be respectful of that when I drive with someone else in the car.

dgrobs

Was wondering about that myself. Thanks for the clarification both..

TXE36

I think it is worth pointing out a nuance here - there is grabbing the wheel in a dangerous situation in an attempt to avoid a serious incident when there are no other options and then there is regular instruction. The two are not alike - at all.

There are instructors that are totally "hands off" and there is nothing wrong with that. Years ago I took my wife out on parade laps with her driving. I know her very well and over a long time. Her line was a bit off and I gently corrected the wheel and she absolutely freaked at parade lap speeds. This is someone I know very well and it shocked me - imagine your are with a student you met a few minutes earlier. At least for me, this instilled that just grabbing the wheel during normal instruction isn't that smart.

That said, I think some wheel guidance can be very useful - I've had instructors do it to me as a student and it was very helpful. However, IMHO, an instructor should never just grab the wheel without warning for simple instruction. What I do is I explain to the student what I want to do beforehand, I tell them I'd like to guide their right hand and that they should keep both hands on the wheel - the car will always be theirs. I ask them if it is okay. With permission I use my left hand to guide the back of their right hand - I never actually touch the wheel and I don't use all that much pressure. If they don't follow, they don't it is their choice and I don't force it. This works very well, but I have had students refuse to give permission and I've respected that.

During my ITS, my instructor (someone who posts here), went absolutely ape**** in the paddock afterward when I grabbed the wheel to guide him without permission: "DON'T YOU EVER DO THAT AGAIN!!!!" This is a pretty mild mannered guy and I've never forgotten that either.

Again, this is totally different than grabbing the wheel in an emergency such as when the student isn't responding and the car is heading for a wall.

My $0.02.

-Mike

NaroEscape

when I was a beginner, I had an instructor grab the wheel to 'correct' my line. Even though he mentioned it before we went out, it freaked me out and I instictively jerked the wheel away from him...causing a spin and almost wrecking into the wall. Scared me so much I wasn't comfortable the rest of the day and never wanted him as an instructor again. Sure...you may discuss it, but with so many things going on for a newbie, that is NOT something that is normal (someone grabbing the wheel) and you risk an overreaction like I did.