Instructor killed at PBIR April 16 2019
#61
WRONGLY ACCUSED!
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You take your life in your hands when you drive to the track! The scariest racing incidents I have ever had is towing and someone did something stupid in front of me. Stupid things on track are a distant second.
I think the hardest part of instructing is we can only control students with our voice, and nothing else, and that makes us feel powerless under many situations.
I wonder how many incidents occur for drivers off the track? Is the number of on track events statistically significant? I'm certain Peter London as a person was very significant but how do we judge these situations. There is no other way to deal with it except to say "it won't happen to me."
I think the hardest part of instructing is we can only control students with our voice, and nothing else, and that makes us feel powerless under many situations.
I wonder how many incidents occur for drivers off the track? Is the number of on track events statistically significant? I'm certain Peter London as a person was very significant but how do we judge these situations. There is no other way to deal with it except to say "it won't happen to me."
#63
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You can also grab/guide the wheel from the right seat, especially to prevent the student from trying to rush back on track if they put wheels off the pavement. Some organizations teach doing this, and I've found it to be a useful tool. But best to always discuss grabbing/guiding the wheel with the student before you get in the car, and the scenarios in which you may do it, so that they're not surprised and upset if you actually do it.
#64
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My understanding is that it was a private event and that Peter was working for a client, but I don't know that for sure.
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-Peter Krause
www.peterkrause.net
www.gofasternow.com
"Combining the Art and Science of Driving Fast!"
Specializing in Professional, Private Driver Performance Evaluation and Optimization
Consultation Available Remotely and at VIRginia International Raceway
-Peter Krause
www.peterkrause.net
www.gofasternow.com
"Combining the Art and Science of Driving Fast!"
Specializing in Professional, Private Driver Performance Evaluation and Optimization
Consultation Available Remotely and at VIRginia International Raceway
#65
Not listening is the fastest way for a student of mine to end our relationship - I simply will not tolerate it.
-Mike
#66
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Now you take on liability.
Student will say he could have saved it if not for the instructor grab.
Tough call but once off track or in a spin not much a wheel grab can correct.
Split second decision but still a very tough call.
SCCA, POC licensed and current PCA DE National instructor.
Key for me is getting to know the student before I get in the car and set ground rule for first few laps so I can make an assessment.
Tragic for all.
Student will say he could have saved it if not for the instructor grab.
Tough call but once off track or in a spin not much a wheel grab can correct.
Split second decision but still a very tough call.
SCCA, POC licensed and current PCA DE National instructor.
Key for me is getting to know the student before I get in the car and set ground rule for first few laps so I can make an assessment.
Tragic for all.
#68
RIP and very sad! As someone currently going through the instructor’s program with PCA, this is very sobering. For now, my desire to “give back” to the community that has done a lot for me is stronger than the potential risk. I’ll take these comments seriously as I step in the right seat.
#69
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Now you take on liability.
Student will say he could have saved it if not for the instructor grab.
Tough call but once off track or in a spin not much a wheel grab can correct.
Split second decision but still a very tough call.
SCCA, POC licensed and current PCA DE National instructor.
Key for me is getting to know the student before I get in the car and set ground rule for first few laps so I can make an assessment.
Tragic for all.
Student will say he could have saved it if not for the instructor grab.
Tough call but once off track or in a spin not much a wheel grab can correct.
Split second decision but still a very tough call.
SCCA, POC licensed and current PCA DE National instructor.
Key for me is getting to know the student before I get in the car and set ground rule for first few laps so I can make an assessment.
Tragic for all.
IMO, for the safety of the both the student and instructor, an instructor shouldn't hesitate to do what they can from the right seat to try to improve the outcome, rather than being passive out of concern for potential liability.
Standard application for grabbing the wheel is when the car is off and you want to keep the wheel straight, rather than allowing the student to jerk the car back on track and putting it into a wall on the other side of track. Grabbing the wheel works in this situation. IMO, every instructor should be trained to do it.
#70
8th Gear
I just think there are more events, more clubs and more venues to do this. There are a finite amount of people who want to "give back." Bless them, for sure. I see the same folks at VIR with many different clubs. Most are extremely experienced and dedicated. But it's still a finite number...
On GFM, done. Rest in Peace, Peter London.
John
#71
WRONGLY ACCUSED!
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You can also grab/guide the wheel from the right seat, especially to prevent the student from trying to rush back on track if they put wheels off the pavement. Some organizations teach doing this, and I've found it to be a useful tool. But best to always discuss grabbing/guiding the wheel with the student before you get in the car, and the scenarios in which you may do it, so that they're not surprised and upset if you actually do it.
While it certainly is not standard operating procedure, I will go beyond my voice to save my butt. As Manifold mentioned, there is grabbing the wheel. There also is the parking brake, shift lever, and if not a typical P-car, the ignition. I'll be damned if I will go into a wall or some other dangerous thing while just exercising my voice.
Not listening is the fastest way for a student of mine to end our relationship - I simply will not tolerate it.
-Mike
Not listening is the fastest way for a student of mine to end our relationship - I simply will not tolerate it.
-Mike
RIP and very sad! As someone currently going through the instructor’s program with PCA, this is very sobering. For now, my desire to “give back” to the community that has done a lot for me is stronger than the potential risk. I’ll take these comments seriously as I step in the right seat.
#72
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I guess I intentionally left that out as it is generally frowned upon. I know PCA says never to do this but I had to do it once at Lime Rock and it was all instinct. After it happened I promptly told the CI and described in detail what led up to me doing it and he said "you did the right thing". At the time I felt like I had failed my student because I grabbed the wheel but in retrospect I know I made the right call and saved us from a bigger problem.
#73
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That's not accurate, maybe something local to your PCA region(s). PCA Potomac teaches and practices grabbing/guiding the wheel from the right seat during its instructor refreshers. Potomac is the largest PCA region, and one of the Potomac CIs is the PCA national safety chair.
You can grab the wheel all you want from the right seat and mitigate (perhaps) the impact angle or force vectors, but you are NOT in control of the car. I've done it, not apologized for it, and been very, very lucky.
#74