LuigiVampa

You take your life in your hands when you drive to the track! The scariest racing incidents I have ever had is towing and someone did something stupid in front of me. Stupid things on track are a distant second.

I think the hardest part of instructing is we can only control students with our voice, and nothing else, and that makes us feel powerless under many situations.

I wonder how many incidents occur for drivers off the track? Is the number of on track events statistically significant? I'm certain Peter London as a person was very significant but how do we judge these situations. There is no other way to deal with it except to say "it won't happen to me."

Veloce Raptor

Has anyone determined if Peter was killed in one of these "exotic experiences", or if it was in fact one on one private coaching?

Manifold

You can also grab/guide the wheel from the right seat, especially to prevent the student from trying to rush back on track if they put wheels off the pavement. Some organizations teach doing this, and I've found it to be a useful tool. But best to always discuss grabbing/guiding the wheel with the student before you get in the car, and the scenarios in which you may do it, so that they're not surprised and upset if you actually do it.

ProCoach

My understanding is that it was a private event and that Peter was working for a client, but I don't know that for sure.

TXE36

While it certainly is not standard operating procedure, I will go beyond my voice to save my butt. As Manifold mentioned, there is grabbing the wheel. There also is the parking brake, shift lever, and if not a typical P-car, the ignition. I'll be damned if I will go into a wall or some other dangerous thing while just exercising my voice.

Not listening is the fastest way for a student of mine to end our relationship - I simply will not tolerate it.

-Mike

996AE

Now you take on liability.

Student will say he could have saved it if not for the instructor grab.

Tough call but once off track or in a spin not much a wheel grab can correct.

Split second decision but still a very tough call.

SCCA, POC licensed and current PCA DE National instructor.

Key for me is getting to know the student before I get in the car and set ground rule for first few laps so I can make an assessment.

Tragic for all.

Veloce Raptor

Geez

Akunob

RIP and very sad! As someone currently going through the instructor’s program with PCA, this is very sobering. For now, my desire to “give back” to the community that has done a lot for me is stronger than the potential risk. I’ll take these comments seriously as I step in the right seat.

Manifold

A student can make those arguments, but the instructor has much more expertise than the student, and if we're talking counterfactuals, the instructor can also argue that the outcome could have been worse if the instructor hadn't intervened. We also have some protection against liability with the waivers.

IMO, for the safety of the both the student and instructor, an instructor shouldn't hesitate to do what they can from the right seat to try to improve the outcome, rather than being passive out of concern for potential liability.

Standard application for grabbing the wheel is when the car is off and you want to keep the wheel straight, rather than allowing the student to jerk the car back on track and putting it into a wall on the other side of track. Grabbing the wheel works in this situation. IMO, every instructor should be trained to do it.

Nonsequitur

Spot on Peter. We're doing a little work to find some stats on events, but there are more of each; events, clubs, venues, participants, boosted by vehicle choices, advertising, games, and economy.
On GFM, done. Rest in Peace, Peter London.
John

LuigiVampa

I guess I intentionally left that out as it is generally frowned upon. I know PCA says never to do this but I had to do it once at Lime Rock and it was all instinct. After it happened I promptly told the CI and described in detail what led up to me doing it and he said "you did the right thing". At the time I felt like I had failed my student because I grabbed the wheel but in retrospect I know I made the right call and saved us from a bigger problem.



I wouldn't be where I am without all the people who sat right seat for me. How could I not do the same?

Manifold

That's not accurate, maybe something local to your PCA region(s). PCA Potomac teaches and practices grabbing/guiding the wheel from the right seat during its instructor refreshers. Potomac is the largest PCA region, and one of the Potomac CIs is the PCA national safety chair.

ProCoach

This is an example of how different regions adopt different procedures and control strategies. Not all regions take their cues from National or other larger regions.

You can grab the wheel all you want from the right seat and mitigate (perhaps) the impact angle or force vectors, but you are NOT in control of the car. I've done it, not apologized for it, and been very, very lucky.

TXE36

While not a perfect analogy, better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6.

-Mike

Veloce Raptor

Every single day!