Notices
Racing & Drivers Education Forum
Sponsored by:
Sponsored by:

Instructor killed at PBIR April 16 2019

Thread Tools
 
Search this Thread
 
Old 04-18-2019, 05:46 PM
  #31  
fast1
Race Car
 
fast1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 3,899
Received 222 Likes on 147 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by stownsen914
This is tragic news, and so sad for all involved.

Given the description of the accident, it made me wonder if there is an exotic car experience at PBIR where you can rent 3 laps in a Ferrari, Lambo, etc. and if that might have been involved. However this came to be, a most terrible outcome
Many decades ago I attended Bondurant's racing school and before too long I was issued a competition license. Back then racing was extraordinarily dangerous, and fatalities were the norm and not exception. Hence, novice drivers worked their way up the HP ladder. For example the first car that I raced was a 95 HP GT6. The advantage of driving low HP cars was that you were able to make mistakes without suffering catastrophic consequences. Today it's not uncommon to see a novice driver with a 650 HP Z06. To make matters worse some of these drivers believe that they are skilled because they are able to run decent lap times largely because of the intervention of computerized aids.
Notwithstanding the fact that tracks and cars are vastly safer than they were when I raced, safe tracks and technologically sophisticated cars may not always be able to overcome errors made by an inexperienced driver.
Old 04-18-2019, 05:56 PM
  #32  
Veloce Raptor
Rennlist Member
 
Veloce Raptor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: All Ate Up With Motor
Posts: 41,863
Received 1,690 Likes on 872 Posts
Default

The laws of physics always prevail
Old 04-18-2019, 11:12 PM
  #33  
ShakeNBake
Rennlist Member
 
ShakeNBake's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 5,660
Received 961 Likes on 555 Posts
Default

RIP
Old 04-19-2019, 06:03 PM
  #34  
KevinGross
Rennlist Member
 
KevinGross's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Stow, MA, USA
Posts: 1,512
Received 175 Likes on 116 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by Manifold
In my experience (more than a hundred students, many dozens of checkouts, and training/evaluating new instructors), the most challenging students have been (a) younger aggressive drivers who don't respect the risks and don't always want to listen and (b) older drivers who fit what you described, and need to accept that driving on track isn't for them. But I don't want to stereotype based on age, since these challenging students are a small minority, and typical good students span the entire age range.
Maybe yes, maybe no. The problem is such criteria are not very helpful. I've had the pleasure of mentoring instructor candidates for PCA for a bunch of years. The mistake, big big mistake that almost every one of my candidates has made is failing to crawl inside the student's head (me, for example when we role play) and calibrate what's going on. Vulcan mind meld. You *have* to do this, it is the only way to stay safe. And be a good instructor, to boot.

What I've learned is that when communicating with / instructing someone, we can be doing one of three things:
  • we can talk to them, tell them what we think they need to know;
  • we can ask them questions, probe, get curious about what they think;
  • we can listen to the student talk.
Too many instructors and instructor candidates do a whole lot of #1, and forget about 2 and 3. The way you stay safe is by getting the student to talk, so you know for example whether s/he's in a brain freeze, thinking two corners back, scared ****less, etc.

(I hope it is obvious that I cannot possibly know how Peter London was working with his student, and mean no disrespect toward him. I am simply reflecting on Manifold's post.)
Old 04-19-2019, 06:51 PM
  #35  
Manifold
Rennlist Member
 
Manifold's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Mid-Atlantic (on land, not in the middle of the ocean)
Posts: 13,342
Received 4,526 Likes on 2,576 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by KevinGross
Maybe yes, maybe no. The problem is such criteria are not very helpful. I've had the pleasure of mentoring instructor candidates for PCA for a bunch of years. The mistake, big big mistake that almost every one of my candidates has made is failing to crawl inside the student's head (me, for example when we role play) and calibrate what's going on. Vulcan mind meld. You *have* to do this, it is the only way to stay safe. And be a good instructor, to boot.

What I've learned is that when communicating with / instructing someone, we can be doing one of three things:
  • we can talk to them, tell them what we think they need to know;
  • we can ask them questions, probe, get curious about what they think;
  • we can listen to the student talk.
Too many instructors and instructor candidates do a whole lot of #1, and forget about 2 and 3. The way you stay safe is by getting the student to talk, so you know for example whether s/he's in a brain freeze, thinking two corners back, scared ****less, etc.

(I hope it is obvious that I cannot possibly know how Peter London was working with his student, and mean no disrespect toward him. I am simply reflecting on Manifold's post.)
100% agreed.
Old 04-19-2019, 07:48 PM
  #36  
TXE36
Drifting
 
TXE36's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: TX
Posts: 2,943
Received 191 Likes on 128 Posts
Default

I agree as well, getting into the student's head is key. I don't relax for the instructing part of the track weekend until I get in there. Once inside and a workable arrangement is in place, it's "okay, lets have some fun". Without that, it is "shields up" and not nearly as fun. A student providing verbal feedback puts me at ease, a quiet student, even one that listens and is demonstrating good judgement, isn't quite as comfortable.

-Mike
Old 04-19-2019, 08:00 PM
  #37  
dgrobs
Rennlist Member
 
dgrobs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2017
Location: The Swamps of Jersey/WGI/VIR...
Posts: 6,715
Received 1,831 Likes on 1,220 Posts
Default

Uggh. Prayers and vibes.
There are no words....
Old 04-19-2019, 09:55 PM
  #38  
ProCoach
Rennlist
Basic Site Sponsor
 
ProCoach's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Durham, NC and Virginia International Raceway
Posts: 19,150
Received 3,329 Likes on 1,891 Posts
Default

I can tell you that Peter was far beyond many, of not most, club instructors. It didn't save him...
__________________
-Peter Krause
www.peterkrause.net
www.gofasternow.com
"Combining the Art and Science of Driving Fast!"
Specializing in Professional, Private Driver Performance Evaluation and Optimization
Consultation Available Remotely and at VIRginia International Raceway






















Old 04-19-2019, 09:58 PM
  #39  
ProCoach
Rennlist
Basic Site Sponsor
 
ProCoach's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Durham, NC and Virginia International Raceway
Posts: 19,150
Received 3,329 Likes on 1,891 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by KevinGross
Maybe yes, maybe no. The problem is such criteria are not very helpful. I've had the pleasure of mentoring instructor candidates for PCA for a bunch of years. The mistake, big big mistake that almost every one of my candidates has made is failing to crawl inside the student's head (me, for example when we role play) and calibrate what's going on. Vulcan mind meld. You *have* to do this, it is the only way to stay safe. And be a good instructor, to boot.

What I've learned is that when communicating with / instructing someone, we can be doing one of three things:
  • we can talk to them, tell them what we think they need to know;
  • we can ask them questions, probe, get curious about what they think;
  • we can listen to the student talk.
Too many instructors and instructor candidates do a whole lot of #1, and forget about 2 and 3. The way you stay safe is by getting the student to talk, so you know for example whether s/he's in a brain freeze, thinking two corners back, scared ****less, etc.

(I hope it is obvious that I cannot possibly know how Peter London was working with his student, and mean no disrespect toward him. I am simply reflecting on Manifold's post.)
Kevin, I appreciate what you're saying. And, I appreciate Manifold's careful, considerate view.

But NOTHING is going to save you in THIS situation... God DAMN it...
Old 04-19-2019, 11:16 PM
  #40  
LuigiVampa
WRONGLY ACCUSED!
Rennlist Member
 
LuigiVampa's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: PCA Gulag
Posts: 14,992
Received 4,426 Likes on 1,942 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by ProCoach
I can tell you that Peter was far beyond many, of not most, club instructors. It didn't save him...
That is the most sobering comment of this thread.
Old 04-20-2019, 07:43 AM
  #41  
dgrobs
Rennlist Member
 
dgrobs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2017
Location: The Swamps of Jersey/WGI/VIR...
Posts: 6,715
Received 1,831 Likes on 1,220 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by LuigiVampa
That is the most sobering comment of this thread.
Thought exactly the same thing when I read it Luigi.

Sobering is an understatement to say the least.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. 100% gratitude and appreciation to every instructor I've ever had in my right seat. You guys are the reason I drive like I drive.

An incident like this really lets me know how much you instructors sacrifice and how much you really put out there on the line to keep this sport alive and growing.

Not much else to say here. So saddened by this. Just way too close to home to even think about.

Thoughts to the families and friends of the victims of this incident. Just too sad to even put into words....

Last edited by dgrobs; 04-20-2019 at 09:03 AM.
Old 04-20-2019, 08:40 AM
  #42  
PLNewman
Burning Brakes
 
PLNewman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Posts: 1,083
Likes: 0
Received 124 Likes on 67 Posts
Default

https://www.gofundme.com/qgy25k-pete...-memorial-fund

Old 04-20-2019, 09:19 AM
  #43  
ProCoach
Rennlist
Basic Site Sponsor
 
ProCoach's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Durham, NC and Virginia International Raceway
Posts: 19,150
Received 3,329 Likes on 1,891 Posts
Default

Thanks for that link. Done.
Old 04-20-2019, 09:27 AM
  #44  
ShakeNBake
Rennlist Member
 
ShakeNBake's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 5,660
Received 961 Likes on 555 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by LuigiVampa
That is the most sobering comment of this thread.
yes it is.

MV^2 is not looking out for your best interests.
Old 04-20-2019, 10:11 AM
  #45  
dgrobs
Rennlist Member
 
dgrobs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2017
Location: The Swamps of Jersey/WGI/VIR...
Posts: 6,715
Received 1,831 Likes on 1,220 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by ProCoach
Thanks for that link. Done.
Ditto.

Very strong response to this GFM page. Says a lot about this community.

I think it's great when we all put aside our differences and come together for each other when tragedy strikes.

Good people here on RL.


Quick Reply: Instructor killed at PBIR April 16 2019



All times are GMT -3. The time now is 04:42 AM.