Streak

I genuinely don't understand what you don't understand. Do you think PCA or any car club wants you to hit a wall at 120 and die? Do you think they want to stop the event and clean that up because "who cares what safety equipment I wear?"

Widows sue car clubs all the time. Insurance rates go up and up and up. Liability waivers are a 50/50 prospect for the club and the track at best. How many more of these events do you think will happen if a car club decided "wear what you want" and somebody gets maimed as a result?

Blue Chip

This seems pretty simple to me.... maybe I'm missing something though. Helmet, HANS, harness - it's all (and always) together. I don't have the factory belts any more - so it's not even an option. If the determination is that for a student to ride with me they have to have a HANS because I only have harnesses - then so be it. If the student wants to go for a ride along bad enough - then they will find a way.

Racingswh

I would expect there is plenty of data at PCA National from all of the crashes where airbags have deployed during DE's and the occupants were wearing helmets to make some type of reasonable assessment as to whether or not it is safe. My guess is far more information than could be collected from a lead follow BMW school where crashing is more than likely very rare. Do they wear helmets at BMW DE events in cars with airbags?

I was at NJMP Thundebolt visiting a friend at an event this past October and he had a failure with a brake caliper going into T1. He wasn't going very fast at the time, turning laps in the 1;27-28 range, but starting to get up to speed. Car went left at 140 mph and proceeded to crash into the barrier on the left. Not a straight on shot but the airbags deployed. He was strapped in wearing a 6 point harness and HANS in an FIA racing seat, no cage or roll bar, harness bar only. He was completely fine and did give credit to how well he felt the HANS had protected his neck.

PCA would be well served compiling all the data they have on all of the crashes they have had over the years in order to identify injury trends to determine what is safe and what is not. Then they could either suggest or require use of or elimination of certain safety equipment based on actual data.

Thundermoose

I would feel naked without my Hans.

Manifold

Yeah, for me, about the same as driving on the street without my seat belt. Who among us would be comfortable doing that?

m3bs

Manifold

I think a roll cage is the gold standard, along with a proper seat, harness, and HANS, and preferably also fire suppression (rare in DE-only cars). A roll bar adds some roll protection, but doesn't prevent the A-pillars from deforming downwards, and provides limited added protection for a side impact, so the added protection of a roll bar falls well short of a roll cage.

At least for modern Porsches, they seem to usually do pretty well in rolls, even without a roll bar.

I have a roll bar and harnesses in my 991 GT3, and am satisfied with the level of protection for a car driven on both track and street, but on the track I'm always aware, in the back of my mind, that I don't have a full race car safety system.

911ted

Airbag systems are not fault free, nor very forgiving.
Sh*t happens; seen a GT3 go up near a 45 degree roll angle, all 10 airbags got deployed, car didn't roll, but damage was done, weekend over.

BillNye

For the sake of discussion, where does a head and neck device like the 3pt compatible Simpson Hybrid S fall into the equation?
If the driver is using one of those with a 3-pt belt, should the passenger be using one?

Racingswh

My opinion is yes and when I was a Co-Safety Chair at Riesentoter for the 2013 -2016 seasons it was very hard not to let my personal beliefs drive my decisions. I do not know if this is a reasonable requirement however.

I personally believe everyone should be wearing a head and neck restraint regardless of belt configuration. I happen to use the Simpson. In addition I would not make an instructor take their's off if their student did not have one on. If I was told I had to be what is IMO less safe and remove my head and neck restraint I would not get in the student's car.

StoogeMoe

I was just talking to my friend who did the BMW "M" school in South Carolina. I was astonished to hear him tell me that they didn't wear helmets. And he told me they weren't just *****-footing around either, going over 100mph. I don't know if I would feel comfortable relying on air bags and three point seat belts.

docwyte

I agree that telling an instructor they can't wear their Simpson Hybrid S in a students car is counterproductive to safety. If a student wants a ride in an instructors car and they don't have a HANS, the answer is simple, either they borrow one or they don't ride in that instructors car. (I'm assuming the instructors car is rollbar/cage, seats, 5-6 point harnesses).

Blue Chip

This is kind of my thinking as well.

NaroEscape

I agree with the rule - and as Clark said, not because we sell them, but because there is value in being safe. Safety items are mostly not stand alone, they act as a system. HANS (and other brand variations) are part of a full safety SYSTEM - just like a harness and seats that are built for harnesses. I see zero downside. Why do we put race seats and harnesses in the car to begin with? why do we wear helmets? why fire suits? why roll bars and/or cages? There's also a reason why every helmet sold now has backing plate already installed for H&N restraint anchors.

And yes...there was discussion about this 6 months ago or so. This is not new.

The instructor/student question is still an issue....both ways. Say for example a student is driving a car with only 6 pt harness and race seats (yes it happens a lot - spouse or friend or child of a racer) and has a HANS, but the instructor DOES NOT have a H&N restraint because he/she drives a street car without harnesses? (majority of instructors I would guess). rearranging instructor/student match ups is not an insignificant task for a registrar or CI...Just a thought to ponder....

SToronto

I am just starting to think about outfitting my car better because I want to be safe. It's not a statement of how experienced or good I am, I'm new. My thought was to buy a Hans for my instructor, now I can't have both sizes but can have one. They can use it if they don't have one. The rest of the equipment would already be in the car. Only other thing is their helmet would need the right fittings and they would need to have the will to use it.