I know - just giving you a hard time...

 

Hi,

I totally agree with James.

I have helped at several events, twice in NH for a car control clinic, and once in MA at a autocross school. I like the NH model since it covers more, though I whish it was run more than once a year, aka more seat time.

You learn, skid pad, brake technique, brake/avoidance, slalom. I'd say slalom and brake/avoidance is where you potentially could learn to catch the car best.

The best would be, not to help out but to participate

Now if we just could get this type of event to happen every week-end for a month, we would be much better off.

Michael

 

The problem with holding a car control clinic type event more than once a year is that you won't be able to get as many students to attend, which would mean the lot rental and insurance fees would not be covered quite as easily.

I agree with Brian: a 2 minute lap time is slow, even by my standards! (Hi Brian! )

-Z-man.

 

Well, judging by the response we might get quite a turnout if the format was right. Let's face it, going to an AutoX and getting seat time is like trying to get soup from the Soup ****, if you don't do everything just so "No Soup For You" In other words "No Seat Time For You, you didn't apex .2mm from the dirt spot .5mm past the cone". Yes, this was how I felt when I went to an autoX..Not a very successful teaching style, to say the least..

So, with this info, I would be glad to resubmit my format proposal to some local regions and see if it would fly..Anybody with me on this!!!(Sorry Eric, you'll just have to fly me out to Chicago so I can help out there too, by the way, your region puts on THE BEST Club Race, Road America is awesome, please pass this on to your region officers)

Cheers, James

 

Hi James,

I'm ready to get this working.

Michael

 

Hi,

I have been AutoX'ing for several years now. I offer the following comments:

-Yes, at each outing, you only get a few runs and a small amount of seat time.

-If you do a few AutoX's at the same site, you begin to notice that the types of curves are fairly constant as each area has only a few viable layouts. This means that you do get your reps, only they are spread over several events and you get sme time to think about how you will do better next time.

-The 1-2 minutes on the course should be fairly intense as you are making many changes to your car's attitude in a short amount of time. Small mistakes are almost immdiately apparent and can be corrected in the next run.

-AutoX is competetion. You can easily measure your progress against both yourself and others. DE does not afford this luxury in a formalized manner.

-Our PCA Club has a turnout of about 30-40 and you get 5-8 runs in a 5 hour event. Our local SCCA Solo 2 has a turnout of about 70 for the am event and about 70 for the pm event and you get 3 runs in a 4 hour day. Often there are two cars on course (assuming a favorable layout).

-Both PCA and SCCA has no chalk board instruction. We have a drivers meeting, and then go to our stations (or cars) and start competing. The course is set in the morning and we drive the same course until we go home at night. I would think it would would be a HUGE waste of valuable time to change the course after two runs.

-When I have an instructor ride with me, it was not turn here, you missed the apex there as if I was a robot driving their car. But rather, a conversation after the run on how to determine a proper line, what is a viable strategy for the run, why not try this next time, don't coast in this section, slow down earlier on turn 3 to avoid a slide, hold you speed a bit more before turn 7, etc. If they did the "soup ****" thing, I would probably stop in mid-course and ask them to get out.

It's supposed to be fun. Would I like more seat time, sure, but so would all the other folks there also. I guess if I wanted time, DEis better, but I think I get more of an awareness of car physics at AutoX.

A fellow AutoX'er went to his first DE a while back. He told me that is was like a giant AutoX where you actually have time to setup for each turn in a very calculating manner since you have so much time between the turns. He felt the time spent in AutoX really helped him drive a better line in DE and progress much faster than if he had not done AutoX first.

"AutoX... If is was any easier, it would be called Road Racing"

 

Very good points!!!

Our region is fortunate enough to have the autocross course at the parking lot for a NFL football team (well, actually two teams). As such, we can get 2-3 cars on the course at the same time. This allows us to each get 6-7 runs with 120 entrants.

I, for one, think there's a large number of skills that translate between autocross and DE and a complete driver should try both types of events.

If you are one of the "how do you know if you are over the limit unless you spin" people, autocross is perfect for you. Unless you are really careless and unlucky, you won't damage your car at an autocross event. So, spin all you want. I know that I probably did about 10 autocross events before I had a spin-free day. In the meanwhile, you can also safely learn how to recover from a near spin and how to dance with the car on the limit.

These types of skills are best learned in a low speed environment and with no barriers around. After you feel 100% confident, then you can take them to the track.

What else does autocross teach? As people have noted, the course changes between events. So, the successful autocrosser learns how to drive a new course quickly. Some amazing autocrossers can be driving the FTD (fastest time of day) on their 2nd run. Now, imagine going to a new track and being able to learn it that quickly. I, for one, consider that a valuable skill.

On the flip side, it can be a bit difficult for novices as you don't get a chance to repeat the same course between events. This is why I think autocross drivers should try going to the track. Here's a perfect way to take the same set of turns over and over and over again until you think you have it perfected. This gives them a chance to really see if they are at the limit.

Now what I think would be really fun would be a mid-winter autocross. Now that would teach us a thing or two about car control.

 

I agree w/ Z-man's assessments on the value of autocrossing. I know it's a long day for a few minutes of driving, but the few minutes are action packed with a number of corners that require a lot of precision & car control.

Eric - it sounds like you need something in between autocrossing & DEs. It's too bad you don't live out here in SoCal. The POC has a great series called the Short Track Series. All of the events are held at the Streets of Willow (1.8 mile road course that's fairly technical). This is a perfect course for those who want more than autocrossing, but don't care to go to a fast track. Top speeds are about 90-100 mph (4th gear, depending on the car) on the front straight, and mainly 2nd gear corners after that (maybe two corners are done in 3rd).

Perhaps there's a club near Chicago that can offer something similar? If not, then it's a great excuse to move out here!

Rich

 

Brian,
Excellent points! I think that if autocross (at least one event) were made a prerequisite for DE's, a lot of people would do much better right out of the box on the track!
The Philly SCCA offers a mid-winter autox series. Next event is Feb 7th in Camden, NJ. Here's their website. (Other dates: 2-21, 2-28, 3-13, 3-21, 3-27) Maybe we can turn it into a GTC outing?!?

Also, a great resource for the North East (PA, NJ, NY, CT) is Perry Adelbaum's website

-Z-man.

 

Well, it seems like our region is a bit unique. I think they got some of the previous members of the Taleban Regime to run the AutoX. Still, I am one of these people who learn by doing not be lectured at for 2hrs. on weather I should increase my tire pressure by 1/8 Lb. or not....I ended up leaving the event feeling like accomplished nothing since I had gotten 5 min. of driving time for 7hrs. of standing around. I have met many other people who feel the same way about AutoX. Why is is so hard to change the format to allow more seat time? If you go to any racing school or ask a pro driver, the one thing they say that will improve your driving is seat time. I don't think anyone can argue against this. As I said before, the lessons learned in AutoX are great, it's just the logistics of the event that don't make any sense to me.

Cheers, James

 

James-

Attend one of the NCR AX events instead of the NER. Same location (Devens), less entrants, more runs.

Cheers,

 

I would agree that autox is the best place to learn car control. Far more cornering, all at or above the car's limits.

I found the answer to the seat time problem in autox. Take an Evolution Performance Driving school http://autocross.com/evolution/. You get about 30 runs a day with one on one instruction from a SCCA Solo II National champ.

 

Surprised I didn't grock any mention of ice racing in this thread. Anyhoo, here in the Boston area, BMWCCA runs AXs on lake ice in Northern NH. If you can stand the cold, you can learn a lot. One assumes that something similar is available in the Chicago area.

As to the value of AX, to me its inestimable. Being a MA resident, when you drive in a DE you self-insure. The best insurance your can get is knowing how to control your car by staying ahead of it. AX gives you a safe environment to find the limits of your car and your skill in dealing with it. I've had more than one occasion on the track where AX experience has come in handy like in not hitting walls and stuff, as well as dealing with some boneheaded moves on the part of other drivers. Yeah theres can be a lot of downtime, but OTOH you get to drive flat out in a virtually completely safe environment. The consequences of screwing up are greatly reduced and theres no doubt you'll learn how to react more quickly, read courses better and look ahead. My advice is to suffer through it for a year or two, it could save you a lot of money and who know you might even have fun. I certainly have.

 

Guys, I am putting together an "Extreme Driving School" around May 18-19 in the Chicago area. It will not be like any of the chest puffing, fat lawyer/doctor schools that exist for water cooler talk. This will be a hard nosed, highly technical, and extremely beneficial school run by two extremely competent and experienced race engineering/instructors, PhD engineering level no less. They most often teach driving instructors and have done work for factory schools at BMW, MB, Porsche, etc.

The program would look something like this. Rent out the Burlington Proving Grounds (near Milwaukee) for extensive skid pad and "getting comfortable really driving at the limit". You can't do this at the track because you don't want to go off the track so you really can't spend major - constant - time at the limit. Maybe classroom, 1/2 day skid pad, classroom, then 1/2 day braking and turn in (peak turn corner entry) exercises. After that, go to Gingerman or Blackhawk and run string line, alternate lines, line development etc.

Costs might be in the in the $500 range for 12 guys. Is anyone interested?

This will really be an amazing experience. I am definitely talking heavy skid pad testing. Just as a quick description, you will spend enough time at the limit (and past it) that you will be comfortable doing it. Literally, you will change the radio, have a look around, all at the full limit.

When you are that comfortable, then they work on different things, like "peak" corner entry. One of the hardest parts on the track is getting on the limit immediately at turn in. This separates the really good from the wanabies. What they do is have you enter a coned corner at higher and higher speeds, and this forces you to fly into the corner (much faster than you ever thought you could), throw your car into the turn, and be on the limit immediately.

I can go on and on. If you want more on these guys’ backgrounds or a more detailed itinerary, I can offer it.

 

If you want to learn car control in a safe fun environment try karting.



Here's a shot of me at the new Moran Raceway in Southern California taken this week.