I autocrossed for five years and it's a great way to learn car control in a fairly safe & controlled environment. Even at "lower" speeds you can learn how your car handles and really understand how understeer & oversteer affects your car.

 

That's so cool!!!

 

I would agree with you, Z-man and Rich, that autocross would be a good way to learn how to toss the car around. In theory. The unfortunate fact remains that in the Chicago PCA autocrosses, you get a grand total of about 4 minutes of seat time in a 6-hour outing. That's a joke, IMHO. I should note that I did a couple autocrosses and a few DEs last year. The autocrosses were useless, and the DEs are too fast to test the limits.

Maybe I do need to take a drive to the burbs after a snow. But then I'd have to drive my baby in the salty slush...

BTW, maybe I just found the answer: Gingerman in the snow

 

It it unfortunate that you feel this way. Why do you think they were useless, besides the seat time vs. wait time reasoning?

Seems you haven't given autocrossing a fair chance. Trust me, if you get good at it, it will not seem that autocrossing is useless.

Regards,
-Zoltan.

 

We have the same problem with AutoX here. 9 hrs. of time for 4 min of seat time, totally not worth it IMO. Plus you never get your car out of 2nd gear. Seat time is the key to becoming a better driver, not 2hr. chalk talks and setting up cones. I suggested that they run the autoX differently and have a novice group with one course and no timing. This way you could get alot more seat time and work on feeling out the car instead of focusing on the times.

Cheers, James

 

So? You don't need to be going 150mph to learn car control. I'd rather be in 2nd at around 25mph when I'm pushing my car to it's limits, quite frankly!

BTW: Here (NNJR PCA), we usually get 6-8 runs in a 6 hour timeframe. A little better ratio. I began instructing last year, so for me, there is much less waiting around, and instructing is a ton of fun to boot!

-Z-man.

 

OK so 6-8 runs translates to 15 min. of seat time if you're lucky, wheras a day at a DE gets you 1.5hrs. I agree that you don't need to be doing 150 to learn car control but if you are in greeen at a DE and hitting 150, something is amiss..

James

 

Ok, let's split hairs. First, let's agree that going in a straight line is simple, and relatively easy. So there's not much learning going on down the straights, just a lot of speed.

In autox, there are very few, if any straights. You are always turning!

At a track, a lot of time is spent on the straights. I dunno: on a typical track, maybe 75% of the time is spent on the straights.

Therefore, at an autocross, your seat time is 99% in the corners, while at DE's, it's about 25%.

Don't get me wrong: I LOVE DE's! But too many people discount autocross for many reasons, including:
1. It's too slow.
2. Not enough seat time.
3. It's in a parking lot.
4. 'Slower cars' are beating you.

I have a folding chair I bring to autocrosses for the 'boring' wait time. It seldom gets unfolded! When I'm not running, I'm too busy watching the competition, the smooth drivers, or teaching. I have never, ever been bored at an autocross.

-Z.

 

Ok, I guess my point is that I feel that while the concept is good, the teaching method is bad. I have taught many activities in harsh environments( Rock and Ice climbing, Mountain Search and Rescue, high angle rescue, whitewater kayaking etc.). In all of these activities, repetition is the key to getting the student to understand the concepts being taught. This is how humans learn the best. For example, to teach a roll in a kayak, we would bring students to a pool and show them the moves in calm water before attempting it on a river. They would practice this hundreds of times to learn muscle memory and gain full knowledge of the concepts being taught Now, in Autocross you are given only two or three chances at a particular corner, then the whole course is changed!! Also, you are timed which adds another level of stress/anxiety/competetive urge all of which are bad and do not contribute to the learning process. This to me is the equivalent of putting a new kayaker in a class II river and expecting them to learn how to roll. My belief is that if autocrosses were not timed and the same course was run all day the students would make much better progress. Getting them to do 20+ runs through the same corners would be much more beneficial than having a 2hr. instructional soliloqy followed by 2 runs then a mad dash to change everything.
Now, in a DE, you get to run the same set of corners all day. Take Limerock for example, you get 4 20 min. sessions to practice the same seven corners. This gives you approx. 40 opportunities to practice the same corner( 10+/- laps per session X 4 sessions). This, from an instructional standpoint, is much better. Now, I understand that some students are nervous about speed and this is where my suggestion of the different autoX format could really help.

Cheers, James

 

I hear ya Z-man. I don't think a-x are too slow, nor do I care they're in parking lots, nor do I care about anyone's time or who wins. I just want seat time!! I simply won't set aside 6 hrs to get 4-6 mins of seat time.

Seems to me that they should:
a) completely overhaul the a-x concept (ya, right) or
b) invent another category of instruction focused on seat time and driving at & beyond your car's limits in a safe controlled environment. Kind of a drifting autocross drivers ed with sprinklers and snowblowers.

 

James- I couldn't agree more! Ok think of something to call it and let's create it!

p.s. and what's the best way to learn a language? BERLITZ! Total immersion. Not sitting in a classroom listening to grammar lessons. Speaking, speaking, and more speaking. I say driving is the same way.

p.p.s how did this turn into a auto-cross debate? I was just hoping for suggestions on a big empty parking lot near the city.

 

James, Eric:
BTW: My region hold an annual Car control clinic. This is basically what you are seeking! There are four 'courses' the students run through multiple times: slalom, braking/turning, and skidpad. No stopwatches, no competition: just learning how to navigate around cones. Speak to your PCA autocross chair about holding such an event.

Sorry for turning this into an autocross debate.

-Z-man.

 

I'm doing the math here, and it sounds like you are talking about 2 minute laps at Lime Rock...

Ouch, and we thought autocrosses were slow!

 

No apologies needed; i'm enjoying the discussion.

I attended EXACTLY such an event put on by the Chicago PCA last spring. Alas (sigh) it suffered the same problems-- too much talking and waiting, and not enough seat time.

Now, if you take that event, do it every few weeks, add some water sprinklers, increase the seat time by a factor of 10, throw in some random obstacles, ....

 

Brian, I was adding in a very gross figure to account for warm up/cool down etc. Instructor/student switching etc.

Cheers, James