Laguna Seca: low-grip surface?
#61
Bingo. Can't commit to exceptional performance unless the car, AND THE TRACK, gives you the feeling that you can.
Here, we're saying the comparative level of grip (coefficient of mechanical friction) of the track at WLSR make it tough to do that.
It also make it tough to change the setup of the car to significantly improve mechanical grip, beyond a particular point. The car simply doesn't improve with changes that do improve it on other track surfaces in North America.
COTA is similar in this way, particularly after the latest surface diamond grinding, MAKING it SMOOTHER and reducing the ability of the tire to undergo the chemical process bonding it to the track surface.
The pros thow it in there anyway, and expect to be able to pull it out. WLSR doesn't help that approach. Witness last weekend.
Yes, I have nearly 250 GB of video and data FOR WLSR ALONE, compiled from more than fifty different cars (mostly in the 1:21.XXX to 1:27.XXX range), spanning the last ten years, from rank amateurs to Le Mans winning drivers.
That's what I base my assertions and observations on. Not "feelings."
Peace, out.
Here, we're saying the comparative level of grip (coefficient of mechanical friction) of the track at WLSR make it tough to do that.
It also make it tough to change the setup of the car to significantly improve mechanical grip, beyond a particular point. The car simply doesn't improve with changes that do improve it on other track surfaces in North America.
COTA is similar in this way, particularly after the latest surface diamond grinding, MAKING it SMOOTHER and reducing the ability of the tire to undergo the chemical process bonding it to the track surface.
The pros thow it in there anyway, and expect to be able to pull it out. WLSR doesn't help that approach. Witness last weekend.
Yes, I have nearly 250 GB of video and data FOR WLSR ALONE, compiled from more than fifty different cars (mostly in the 1:21.XXX to 1:27.XXX range), spanning the last ten years, from rank amateurs to Le Mans winning drivers.
That's what I base my assertions and observations on. Not "feelings."
Peace, out.
what did you witness last weekend? you saw what we all saw on the TV. cars crashing into each other and making bad decisions someone losing their brakes and flying up the fence in another race as well... NOTHING to do with track surface or confidence, and everything to do with bad decisions.. i saw no lockups no looseness, no pushy cars. i saw great racing when it was all cleaned up, AND the times were as they usually are. So, without actual data on the mu of the track, its guess work and feelings. sorry peter you are not there enough to know the personality of the track as I do and comparing to to at least all the California tracks, the surface doesn't seem to be any different , but the track is, and that, i say is the difference.. if you dont think how a driver , drives a track , doesnt make the car behave differently, i cant help you. . IMHO !!! that's it , nothing more. my opinon. take it or leave it. and PEACE OUT TO YOU !
I always find it entertaining that someone has to announce when they dont want to partake in a discussion. Dave, it's ok. you dont have to believe me about Laguna...
yes, feelings are facts about feelings.............. that is a good point and is totally valid. yes, Laguna can make you drive in such a way that the track "feels" slick.....so, can we both be right??
#62
Peter, i have twice your data amounts and on the same car, controlling variables on anything from rain , cold to hot temps. And this over 20 years and times kept in the narrow range of 1:36 to 1:38 for the most part. YOU of all people need to understand the psychology of a slower track and the tendency to push naturally over the edge. i hardly think with half the turns being ulta high grip, and a couple of very slow turns that you can say the surface is more slick based on your video data. too many variables. unscientific. and when you are unscientific , it becomes feelings.
what did you witness last weekend? you saw what we all saw on the TV. cars crashing into each other and making bad decisions someone losing their brakes and flying up the fence in another race as well... NOTHING to do with track surface or confidence, and everything to do with bad decisions.. i saw no lockups no looseness, no pushy cars. i saw great racing when it was all cleaned up, AND the times were as they usually are. So, without actual data on the mu of the track, its guess work and feelings. sorry peter you are not there enough to know the personality of the track as I do and comparing to to at least all the California tracks, the surface doesn't seem to be any different , but the track is, and that, i say is the difference.. if you dont think how a driver , drives a track , doesnt make the car behave differently, i cant help you. . IMHO !!! that's it , nothing more. my opinon. take it or leave it. and PEACE OUT TO YOU !
yes, but for some reason, he is not posting a single data point and has only made excuses of how the turns might be different in camber, etc. so, i suggested peak mu on a flat 90 degree turn, something similar to determine if the grip is higher or not............He declined to say, and used his viewing of crashes on a TV race as proof of his case. classic!
I always find it entertaining that someone has to announce when they dont want to partake in a discussion. Dave, it's ok. you dont have to believe me about Laguna...
yes, feelings are facts about feelings.............. that is a good point and is totally valid. yes, Laguna can make you drive in such a way that the track "feels" slick.....so, can we both be right??
what did you witness last weekend? you saw what we all saw on the TV. cars crashing into each other and making bad decisions someone losing their brakes and flying up the fence in another race as well... NOTHING to do with track surface or confidence, and everything to do with bad decisions.. i saw no lockups no looseness, no pushy cars. i saw great racing when it was all cleaned up, AND the times were as they usually are. So, without actual data on the mu of the track, its guess work and feelings. sorry peter you are not there enough to know the personality of the track as I do and comparing to to at least all the California tracks, the surface doesn't seem to be any different , but the track is, and that, i say is the difference.. if you dont think how a driver , drives a track , doesnt make the car behave differently, i cant help you. . IMHO !!! that's it , nothing more. my opinon. take it or leave it. and PEACE OUT TO YOU !
yes, but for some reason, he is not posting a single data point and has only made excuses of how the turns might be different in camber, etc. so, i suggested peak mu on a flat 90 degree turn, something similar to determine if the grip is higher or not............He declined to say, and used his viewing of crashes on a TV race as proof of his case. classic!
I always find it entertaining that someone has to announce when they dont want to partake in a discussion. Dave, it's ok. you dont have to believe me about Laguna...
yes, feelings are facts about feelings.............. that is a good point and is totally valid. yes, Laguna can make you drive in such a way that the track "feels" slick.....so, can we both be right??
Just because you *think* you know more than anyone else doesn't mean you do. You really need to learn that concept.....
#63
Rennlist Hoonigan
which cost no drachmas
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
Rennlist
Site Sponsor
which cost no drachmas
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
Rennlist
Site Sponsor
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 12,718
Likes: 1,011
From: Manchester, NH
There are tools that are used by the tire manufacturers that measure the grip level of a surface. Those come up with WRLS being low grip.
#64
Do you have data from the use of these tools. How where they used, where were they used and how does Laguna compare to other tracks?
#65
May be some more words after all these posts about the grip of this track :
I have been in "few tracks" in my life, (like Spa, (my favorite), Le Castellet (my second favorite), (the horrible) Nurburgring (the only one that I *really* do **NOT** like at all), and etc.. or, some, very fast, i.e.: Monza, or, Le Castellet, when no chicane is in place at the middle of the Mistral straight, ..or 1.2 miles straight line !), and some "slow" ones.
..But : I just *love* big time Laguna Seca, and this : as is !
It is not a track where you are very fast, but it is very technical.
Ok, it is "hard" for the car (i.e.: 3 track days there, and my (front) brake pads are done !), and, to be back on topic : it is very true that tires makes a huge difference (i.e.: with my slow, old and under powered Boxster S, I do have easily 5 seconds differences between street tires and Nitto NT01, or : it is true that if you have the good tires at the right pressure and on the day where the temperature is good, imo, you can have what I call a good grip.
Proof : I never had my recorder giving me 1.5 G lateral in Sears Point, but, ..I got this data in Laguna Seca.
Or, very frankly, I doubt that you can name a track being "low grip", ..when you can get 1.5G lateral, ..with an old Boxster S ! (OK, with NT-01, correct negative camber, and PSS9 adjusted firm and low.)
..my 0.02 G
I have been in "few tracks" in my life, (like Spa, (my favorite), Le Castellet (my second favorite), (the horrible) Nurburgring (the only one that I *really* do **NOT** like at all), and etc.. or, some, very fast, i.e.: Monza, or, Le Castellet, when no chicane is in place at the middle of the Mistral straight, ..or 1.2 miles straight line !), and some "slow" ones.
..But : I just *love* big time Laguna Seca, and this : as is !
It is not a track where you are very fast, but it is very technical.
Ok, it is "hard" for the car (i.e.: 3 track days there, and my (front) brake pads are done !), and, to be back on topic : it is very true that tires makes a huge difference (i.e.: with my slow, old and under powered Boxster S, I do have easily 5 seconds differences between street tires and Nitto NT01, or : it is true that if you have the good tires at the right pressure and on the day where the temperature is good, imo, you can have what I call a good grip.
Proof : I never had my recorder giving me 1.5 G lateral in Sears Point, but, ..I got this data in Laguna Seca.
Or, very frankly, I doubt that you can name a track being "low grip", ..when you can get 1.5G lateral, ..with an old Boxster S ! (OK, with NT-01, correct negative camber, and PSS9 adjusted firm and low.)
..my 0.02 G
#66
Rennlist Hoonigan
which cost no drachmas
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
Rennlist
Site Sponsor
which cost no drachmas
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
Rennlist
Site Sponsor
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 12,718
Likes: 1,011
From: Manchester, NH
You must have missed the part that all that i said was my opinion based on my experience and general understanding. Since Matt has ACTUAL data, I would want to see if the data matches all the feelings and how it stacks up to other tracks in California.Do you have data from the use of these tools. How where they used, where were they used and how does Laguna compare to other tracks?
#67
Rennlist
Basic Site Sponsor
Basic Site Sponsor
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 19,227
Likes: 3,378
From: Durham, NC and Virginia International Raceway
These small handheld devices are capable of temperature and inclinometer measures (in all axis), mu measures, detailed scanning of the aggregate in small areas and are used to correlate to real-life testing and validating sim data. I’ve peeked over some friendly folks shoulders and understand it, but don’t have that information.
So much of this is in order to track surface changes, particularly so that performance gain/loss can be assigned to the correct variable. In our study of tracks, Ross and I are acutely aware that tracks are organic things, constantly changing and evolving with use.
It’s really cool.
#68
May be some more words after all these posts about the grip of this track :
..But : I just *love* big time Laguna Seca, and this : as is !
It is not a track where you are very fast, but it is very technical.
Ok, it is "hard" for the car (i.e.: 3 track days there, and my (front) brake pads are done !), and, to be back on topic : it is very true that tires makes a huge difference (i.e.: with my slow, old and under powered Boxster S, I do have easily 5 seconds differences between street tires and Nitto NT01, or : it is true that if you have the good tires at the right pressure and on the day where the temperature is good, imo, you can have what I call a good grip.
Proof : I never had my recorder giving me 1.5 G lateral in Sears Point, but, ..I got this data in Laguna Seca.
Or, very frankly, I doubt that you can name a track being "low grip", ..when you can get 1.5G lateral, ..with an old Boxster S ! (OK, with NT-01, correct negative camber, and PSS9 adjusted firm and low.)
..my 0.02 G
..But : I just *love* big time Laguna Seca, and this : as is !
It is not a track where you are very fast, but it is very technical.
Ok, it is "hard" for the car (i.e.: 3 track days there, and my (front) brake pads are done !), and, to be back on topic : it is very true that tires makes a huge difference (i.e.: with my slow, old and under powered Boxster S, I do have easily 5 seconds differences between street tires and Nitto NT01, or : it is true that if you have the good tires at the right pressure and on the day where the temperature is good, imo, you can have what I call a good grip.
Proof : I never had my recorder giving me 1.5 G lateral in Sears Point, but, ..I got this data in Laguna Seca.
Or, very frankly, I doubt that you can name a track being "low grip", ..when you can get 1.5G lateral, ..with an old Boxster S ! (OK, with NT-01, correct negative camber, and PSS9 adjusted firm and low.)
..my 0.02 G
The devices I’ve seen most frequently at Pro event track walks are used by the factory Porsche GTLM team, GM, Oreca and some CORE engineers.
These small handheld devices are capable of temperature and inclinometer measures (in all axis), mu measures, detailed scanning of the aggregate in small areas and are used to correlate to real-life testing and validating sim data. I’ve peeked over some friendly folks shoulders and understand it, but don’t have that information.
So much of this is in order to track surface changes, particularly so that performance gain/loss can be assigned to the correct variable. In our study of tracks, Ross and I are acutely aware that tracks are organic things, constantly changing and evolving with use.
It’s really cool.
I'm just offering a few factors that could cause a track to "feel " like it is more slick than others. I'm not declaring that this is the fact or debating what you have seen, Just discussing it, because the question was asked. I've been fooled by feelings plenty of times when looking at the actual data ending up being different.. For example, some "Coaches" said you could "Feel" straight-line acceleration sometimes being greater by short shifting, Clearly the data and math doesn't support that in 99% of the cases.