Laguna Seca: low-grip surface?
07-02-2018, 09:21 AM
#1
Laguna Seca: low-grip surface?
Why is Laguna Seca considered a low-grip surface? I was listened again to the super excellent "virtual track walk" done by Peter Kraus and Ross Bentley. They seemed to say that it had a low grip surface due to dust blowing on the track. When I've driven the track, I don't see any dust/dirt on the surface. Is there another explanation? Is it really a low-grip track? Is it just a matter of there being a lot of slow corners, and also how those corners are cambered?
07-02-2018, 09:51 AM
#2
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If you walk the track especially after it has been used, you'll see and feel the dust and sand
07-02-2018, 11:54 AM
#3
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Ross and I compare the relative grip (to other North American tracks) at the outset of our Virtual Track Walks because the reduced mu (friction) OF THE TRACK SURFACE can explain the difference and alter strategies to counter the loss.
While sand and other debris certainly can affect any track with that type of soil adjacent to the asphalt, that’s not why Ross and I highlighted this phenomena here at Laguna Seca, it was because it’s a relatively slippery, polished asphalt surface with a specific aggregate and “mix” of asphalt and binder (tar/oils and other chemicals holding the stone together) that results in low grip, again relative to some other North American tracks. Some of this is due to “wear.” Tracks do age...
Turn 3, Turn 4 and Turn 11 are the easiest corners to feel this, in just about any car.
Of course, the camber gain at T5, T6 or, most notably, Turn 10 are fantastic!
Enjoy!
While sand and other debris certainly can affect any track with that type of soil adjacent to the asphalt, that’s not why Ross and I highlighted this phenomena here at Laguna Seca, it was because it’s a relatively slippery, polished asphalt surface with a specific aggregate and “mix” of asphalt and binder (tar/oils and other chemicals holding the stone together) that results in low grip, again relative to some other North American tracks. Some of this is due to “wear.” Tracks do age...
Turn 3, Turn 4 and Turn 11 are the easiest corners to feel this, in just about any car.
Of course, the camber gain at T5, T6 or, most notably, Turn 10 are fantastic!
Enjoy!
07-02-2018, 11:26 PM
#5
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Why is Laguna Seca considered a low-grip surface? ... When I've driven the track, I don't see any dust/dirt on the surface. Is there another explanation? Is it really a low-grip track? Is it just a matter of there being a lot of slow corners, and also how those corners are cambered?
Palm Beach International Raceway is even more slippery than Laguna Seca; almost makes Laguna feel grippy.
07-02-2018, 11:37 PM
#6
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Mid-Ohio in the wet takes the cake...
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07-03-2018, 03:06 AM
#9
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laguna is not a low grip surface. it can be if someone takes the dirt route down the corkscrew and makes a mess out of the exit.... but, generally, it has a lot of grip. in fact, with many of the turns with banking, you get an unusual amount of grip on those turns. ive raced it for 20 years in all conditions, except snow. 
it was a lot less grip before they repaved it around 2008
it was a lot less grip before they repaved it around 2008
07-04-2018, 10:30 PM
#10
Anjin San
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I have seen and driven LS and I can tell you that assumption is mistaken. An F1 Ferrari would not have torn up the lap record if it was low grip. It is a technical track not like a NECKCAR OVAL. I started doing things at LS in 1980, granted it was a ride with the Ferrari guys but one guy was a CHP Officer who had a Dino, he had lots of experience driving on low grip surfaces and when you drove with him it was like being glued to the track. I never have felt I was on marbles. If it was low grip they would not race priceless cars on the track. I would not have trund laps if it was slick.. I expect the experience on the track does help. And somebody not as experienced than let’s say Mark Kibort might not be the right guy to walk the track with. I would listen to Canepa before Bentley.
07-05-2018, 04:45 PM
#11
Compared to other tracks, at least in California, Laguna Seca DOES indeed have a lower grip surface. This was true when I road and raced motorcycles there and when I race cars there, like I did last weekend.
Let's not confuse "low grip" with "slippery". That's not what people are saying. Relatively speaking, it IS a low grip surface.
Let's not confuse "low grip" with "slippery". That's not what people are saying. Relatively speaking, it IS a low grip surface.
07-05-2018, 08:36 PM
#12
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Compared to other tracks, at least in California, Laguna Seca DOES indeed have a lower grip surface. This was true when I road and raced motorcycles there and when I race cars there, like I did last weekend.
Let's not confuse "low grip" with "slippery". That's not what people are saying. Relatively speaking, it IS a low grip surface.
Let's not confuse "low grip" with "slippery". That's not what people are saying. Relatively speaking, it IS a low grip surface.
07-07-2018, 12:44 PM
#13
I think the operative word is “RELATIVE” to other tracks in North America. It’s not slippery but has lower grip relative to other major tracks in N.A.
07-07-2018, 01:43 PM
#14
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of the 11 turns of Laguna seca, the turn profile could cause some to feel there is a lack of grip. turn 2 is a fairly tight, fast hairpin off of a very fast straight , with a downhill entrance. turn 3-4 can feel slippery due to the lack of any camber ... however , most pros and frequenters of Laguna would say, turn 5 ,6 9 and 10 tend to be cambered turns that give tremendous grip compared to most turns on other tracks.
07-07-2018, 06:26 PM
#15
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The OP’s incorrect assumption and Mark’s comments notwithstanding, in Ross’ and my experience, as well as most other top racing engineers, WRLS has lower relative grip (mu) than many other tracks in North America.
While sand and orher debris are no doubt more of a factor here than say, Mid-Ohio or COTA (other tracks that exhibit lower mu than many others), that has nothing to do with our calculations and resultant data and experience, relative to some other tracks in North America.