How do people become good at track driving? Once a year won't cut it.
05-03-2018, 03:54 PM
#16
Rennlist Member
I think you’re right that at once a year it’s very hard to develop skills. That’s why I can’t ski well - I never go more than 1-3 times in a season. I mostly run green ski runs in Utah and run down a blue one once in a while.
You can probably get up a level or two without too much additional effort, and some of the basic skills you develop will carry from year to year (some won’t). I’m in NASA DE3 / PCA blue now and have averaged 2 or 3 track days a year over the last 5-7 years. I did five days last year though, and I promoted from DE2 to DE3. I’m trying to consistently do 6 per year and earn my racing / TT license soon (which is essentially automatic after I get to DE4). It won’t take too long at this rate, but if I continued going twice a year it may not have ever happened.
You mentioned the 10000 hour thing. How about the concept of an S curve. I’d say you haven’t hit the rapid acceleration part of an S curve at trying to get out once a year. But if you get out 3+ times a year you start to pick things up and grow slowly. And 6+ you grow a lot faster. And that being said, somewhere around the 4-12 track days per year mark, seat time will taper off as the primary driving force behind skill development and other factors (for example higher quality instruction or taking calculated risks more often) will start to play bigger roles.
Instead of a single DE, have you considered a yearly race school? Your one time per year would go a lot farther and would likely be a lot more fun.
Also, what do you drive? I learn a lot more in cars that have modest power and few or no electronic aids. The lower power keeps the speeds modest which slows things down - more time to react, learn, and it’s less intimidating so you aren’t afraid to take the car a bit farther. And a front engine RWD car is easier to handle if you end up getting past the limit than a rear or mid engine car. Renting an entry level race car like a Spec Miata might be a lot of fun, and if it’s just once or a few times a year the cost won’t be a big deal. The tires will make you grin!
Good luck!
You can probably get up a level or two without too much additional effort, and some of the basic skills you develop will carry from year to year (some won’t). I’m in NASA DE3 / PCA blue now and have averaged 2 or 3 track days a year over the last 5-7 years. I did five days last year though, and I promoted from DE2 to DE3. I’m trying to consistently do 6 per year and earn my racing / TT license soon (which is essentially automatic after I get to DE4). It won’t take too long at this rate, but if I continued going twice a year it may not have ever happened.
You mentioned the 10000 hour thing. How about the concept of an S curve. I’d say you haven’t hit the rapid acceleration part of an S curve at trying to get out once a year. But if you get out 3+ times a year you start to pick things up and grow slowly. And 6+ you grow a lot faster. And that being said, somewhere around the 4-12 track days per year mark, seat time will taper off as the primary driving force behind skill development and other factors (for example higher quality instruction or taking calculated risks more often) will start to play bigger roles.
Instead of a single DE, have you considered a yearly race school? Your one time per year would go a lot farther and would likely be a lot more fun.
Also, what do you drive? I learn a lot more in cars that have modest power and few or no electronic aids. The lower power keeps the speeds modest which slows things down - more time to react, learn, and it’s less intimidating so you aren’t afraid to take the car a bit farther. And a front engine RWD car is easier to handle if you end up getting past the limit than a rear or mid engine car. Renting an entry level race car like a Spec Miata might be a lot of fun, and if it’s just once or a few times a year the cost won’t be a big deal. The tires will make you grin!
Good luck!
05-03-2018, 08:01 PM
#17
Doing things the wrong way just get you further away from expertise.
100% of my DE experience has been through PCA,
so I have never driven without a coach in the car.
If a journalist wants to learn how Tyson became a great boxer, he does not need to become a boxer himself.
05-03-2018, 08:06 PM
#18
What I find challenging about DE is that it's hard to deliberately practice, even during practice.
Just too much going on, get distracted by other cars.
You are told your mistake, but do not attempt to correct until the next lap, IF you even remember the remedy by then.
When you try to learn 20 things at once, you tend to retain none of it.
What would be ideal is to be able to execute the same turn 10 times in a row. Not sequentially.
The reality is, you do Turn 1, note the error, but by the time you come back around a few mins later (after 10 other turns), you've forgotten what the remedy for Turn 1 was.
If you try to do this for EVERY turn, at the time, I tend to forget everything and just drive around without any real purpose.
Each turn is just a random event, and not approached in a deliberate and systematic manner.
Perhaps it's more effective to pick 2 turns, and just ignore the rest. Turn 1 and turn 6. Just focus on them, so you can pay actual attention and process it.
Try the turn at 65. At 70. At 75. etc. Once you have nailed it down, pick the next 2 turns. I could imagine real progress this way after a few days.
Of course, that means going to the same track again, and not next year.
Just too much going on, get distracted by other cars.
You are told your mistake, but do not attempt to correct until the next lap, IF you even remember the remedy by then.
When you try to learn 20 things at once, you tend to retain none of it.
What would be ideal is to be able to execute the same turn 10 times in a row. Not sequentially.
The reality is, you do Turn 1, note the error, but by the time you come back around a few mins later (after 10 other turns), you've forgotten what the remedy for Turn 1 was.
If you try to do this for EVERY turn, at the time, I tend to forget everything and just drive around without any real purpose.
Each turn is just a random event, and not approached in a deliberate and systematic manner.
Perhaps it's more effective to pick 2 turns, and just ignore the rest. Turn 1 and turn 6. Just focus on them, so you can pay actual attention and process it.
Try the turn at 65. At 70. At 75. etc. Once you have nailed it down, pick the next 2 turns. I could imagine real progress this way after a few days.
Of course, that means going to the same track again, and not next year.
05-03-2018, 08:54 PM
#20
Originally Posted by sugarwood
What I find challenging about DE is that it's hard to deliberately practice, even during practice.
Just too much going on, get distracted by other cars.
You are told your mistake, but do not attempt to correct until the next lap, IF you even remember the remedy by then.
When you try to learn 20 things at once, you tend to retain none of it.
Just too much going on, get distracted by other cars.
You are told your mistake, but do not attempt to correct until the next lap, IF you even remember the remedy by then.
When you try to learn 20 things at once, you tend to retain none of it.
I know exactly how you feel...and I can guarantee that the more seat time you get the more many things that were previously distracting will fall away. I promise.
I remember very clearly my first track session. One of the things I remarked to myself was This would be SO much easier if there weren't other cars around!
And then the instructor would ask me whether I knew where the flag stations were. Flag stations, I'd ask? I could barely find the windshield, I thought there was so much going on.
But over time, and over laps and miles, many of those distractions fell away and I was able to focus on the important stuff.
Keep at it!
05-03-2018, 09:00 PM
#21
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What I find challenging about DE is that it's hard to deliberately practice, even during practice.
Just too much going on, get distracted by other cars.
Perhaps it's more effective to pick 2 turns, and just ignore the rest. Turn 1 and turn 6. Just focus on them, so you can pay actual attention and process it.
Try the turn at 65. At 67. At 69. etc.
Just too much going on, get distracted by other cars.
Perhaps it's more effective to pick 2 turns, and just ignore the rest. Turn 1 and turn 6. Just focus on them, so you can pay actual attention and process it.
Try the turn at 65. At 67. At 69. etc.
My favorite quote from working with Ross. "How do you eat an elephant? One bite at a time..."
FIFY.
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-Peter Krause
www.peterkrause.net
www.gofasternow.com
"Combining the Art and Science of Driving Fast!"
Specializing in Professional, Private Driver Performance Evaluation and Optimization
Consultation Available Remotely and at VIRginia International Raceway
05-03-2018, 09:01 PM
#22
Rennlist Member
You’re exactly right, there are too many skills to master all of them at once. In addition to focusing on specific corners, you may decide on specific skills that you’d like to develop and then tell your coach if you have something specific you’d like to work on during a session or over track day.
I hope you’re having a great time whenever you get out there - I know I am!
I hope you’re having a great time whenever you get out there - I know I am!
05-03-2018, 09:35 PM
#23
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Hopefully, any coach that works with you should be able and be willing to evaluate what you're doing objectively, then decide, with your input, on one or two things to work on over a session, perhaps a few more over the the track day.
05-03-2018, 09:52 PM
#24
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All goes down to two elements - quantity and quality.
Quantity - more seat time, and learning outside of track - watch driving videos, read books, visualize, practice on simulator, etc.
Quality - make sure your driving on track is a purposeful practice. Set a goal to improve and have a plan, work on one thing at a time, etc.
One of my favorite things about driving is how much of the skill stays with you even if you do not do it for a month or two. Not so with most other sports, where you drop 10 notches after missing just few weeks.
Quantity - more seat time, and learning outside of track - watch driving videos, read books, visualize, practice on simulator, etc.
Quality - make sure your driving on track is a purposeful practice. Set a goal to improve and have a plan, work on one thing at a time, etc.
One of my favorite things about driving is how much of the skill stays with you even if you do not do it for a month or two. Not so with most other sports, where you drop 10 notches after missing just few weeks.
05-03-2018, 11:48 PM
#25
Rennlist Member
Slow is fast and by that I mean the harder you try to go fast the slower you usually go. Working with a driver coach I learned some laps at 80/85% helped me more than trying to find every tenth every time on track. I feel sim racing has helped along with watching videos and taking notes. You can practice what you need to do on track every day you get in your car, yes you will not be at speed but training your brain to think a certain way, approach a corner, looking into and through a corner etc... can and will help. When on a sim, in the DD or karting I practice being loose on the wheel and not giving it a death grip, I practice breathing, all things that to me affect how you perform on the track and can help you become a better driver.
Like most things in life this is a mental challenge, do your homework before you get to the track and most of all have fun.
Like most things in life this is a mental challenge, do your homework before you get to the track and most of all have fun.
05-04-2018, 10:19 AM
#26
I do not drive fast enough at DE to be sliding around all over the place, and correcting oversteer, like in AX.
If you're out of control on a DE track, doing 70+, it's probably right before you plow into the Armco.
05-04-2018, 11:01 AM
#27
I do not understand the AX correlation to DE track driving.
I do not drive fast enough at DE to be sliding around all over the place, and correcting oversteer, like in AX.
If you're out of control on a DE track, doing 70+, it's probably right before you plow into the Armco.
I do not drive fast enough at DE to be sliding around all over the place, and correcting oversteer, like in AX.
If you're out of control on a DE track, doing 70+, it's probably right before you plow into the Armco.
05-04-2018, 11:34 AM
#28
Originally Posted by sugarwood
I do not understand the AX correlation to DE track driving.
I do not drive fast enough at DE to be sliding around all over the place, and correcting oversteer, like in AX.
If you're out of control on a DE track, doing 70+, it's probably right before you plow into the Armco.
I do not drive fast enough at DE to be sliding around all over the place, and correcting oversteer, like in AX.
If you're out of control on a DE track, doing 70+, it's probably right before you plow into the Armco.
You could make same argument about Karting but I think learning how to make super quick adjustments when car is losing control applies to DE.
05-04-2018, 11:41 AM
#29
I know exactly how you feel...and I can guarantee that the more seat time you get the more many things that were previously distracting will fall away. I promise.
I remember very clearly my first track session. One of the things I remarked to myself was This would be SO much easier if there weren't other cars around!
And then the instructor would ask me whether I knew where the flag stations were. Flag stations, I'd ask? I could barely find the windshield, I thought there was so much going on.
But over time, and over laps and miles, many of those distractions fell away and I was able to focus on the important stuff.
I remember very clearly my first track session. One of the things I remarked to myself was This would be SO much easier if there weren't other cars around!
And then the instructor would ask me whether I knew where the flag stations were. Flag stations, I'd ask? I could barely find the windshield, I thought there was so much going on.
But over time, and over laps and miles, many of those distractions fell away and I was able to focus on the important stuff.
It's like anything that requires physical coordination. When you first learn to ride a bike it's hard to imagine navigating a twisty trail with obstacles when 100% of your mental capacity is dedicated to staying upright.
Start paying attention to the car when you are just driving on the street on your way to work. For example, how does a certain bump feel, or a certain turn, did the car stop/go as quickly/slowly as I was expecting it to based on the amount of pedal pressure I was applying. I used to think people who claimed they could feel certain subtle differences were full of it, but as I've accumulated more time driving my car I can feel the difference in my car between a full and empty tank of gas just based on how the bumps in my driveway feel.
I do not understand the AX correlation to DE track driving.
I do not drive fast enough at DE to be sliding around all over the place, and correcting oversteer, like in AX.
If you're out of control on a DE track, doing 70+, it's probably right before you plow into the Armco.
I do not drive fast enough at DE to be sliding around all over the place, and correcting oversteer, like in AX.
If you're out of control on a DE track, doing 70+, it's probably right before you plow into the Armco.
Personally, I never liked autocross. I'm a bit more of a methodical learner so when the course is always different and there's only four to five 90s runs it's hard for me to get to a point where my brain is "relaxed" enough to even remember what happened in the last run.
05-04-2018, 11:43 AM
#30
I do not understand the AX correlation to DE track driving.
I do not drive fast enough at DE to be sliding around all over the place, and correcting oversteer, like in AX.
If you're out of control on a DE track, doing 70+, it's probably right before you plow into the Armco.
I do not drive fast enough at DE to be sliding around all over the place, and correcting oversteer, like in AX.
If you're out of control on a DE track, doing 70+, it's probably right before you plow into the Armco.