How do people become good at track driving? Once a year won't cut it.
05-04-2018, 11:52 AM
#31
Heck, for my first few DE's I couldn't even remember where I was on the track or which way the next turn went. I probably can't count the number of times I set up for a left and the track went right or vice versa. Turns 2 and 4 at Mosport look pretty much the same on approach but require very different entries. If you don't keep track of where you are and just tackle each corner as you approach it, you'll find yourself in trouble.
After realizing my brain has some sort of crippling deficiency with regard to memorizing a track, I actually took my videos and edited them to add corner numbers and watched them over and over until I could recite the track in my head. "Turn 1 to the right, then turn 2 downhill to the left then turn 3 sweeping right... " etc. I applied this to WGI before going there for the first time and it was a MASSIVE help. Knowing where the track goes is incredibly useful and learning it while driving isn't nearly as good as knowing it before you start!
So to really address the OP's questions... well... I'm in the intermediate solo group in our PCA region. In another group I run with sometimes they haven't so much promoted me to Advanced as they've kicked me out of Intermediate. So how did I get there? If I'm honest, getting promoted has never been a priority. I'm just there to have fun, but I also like learning things. I would absolutely SOAK UP any information my instructors would give, and I had some very good instructors. If they told me to do something differently, I was doing my best to do exactly what they said on the next lap. And then asking questions. "Was that what you meant?"
There's been times where what the instructor was saying and what I was hearing were two very different things. At WGI, after a few sessions my instructor took me out in his car and there were a few places where a light bulb turned on and I thought "AHA!!! THAT's where you want me to be!!"
There was one time at Mosport that seems hilarious to me in retrospect. I was having all sorts of trouble with turn 5 and asked an instructor to come out to help me. My instructor kept telling me to aim at a cone as I came out of 5a and I did it wrong OVER AND OVER AND OVER again. It wasn't until the very last lap of the session when I realized that he and I were focusing on entirely different cones. I was aiming for one on the track and he was talking about one up on the grass somewhere. I spent the next session practicing what I'd learned and coming out of turn 5 faster than I ever had before.
Having moved to solo... much of the time I'm just running around out there entertaining myself. In most cases though I'll pick a corner or two and just concentrate on doing them better. Once I feel like I'm doing the best I can, I'll ask an instructor to come out and give an opinion. They'll find something I'm doing wrong and then I'll work on that.
It doesn't take decades to get better. Since you've always got an instructor, you should be better on the NEXT LAP. If each lap is exactly the same as the previous and you're in the Green group, something isn't right. If you're not changing something, what ARE you doing?
Finally... some people just get it. There's kids out there that could drive circles around me. Some people just have a natural talent for things so they'll progress faster than others. Some people will never get it. It is what it is. So long as you're having fun out there and aren't dangerous or impeding anyone else's fun, just keep doing what you're doing.
05-04-2018, 12:49 PM
#32
Advanced
Instead of DE events you can also do Auto-X. You will learn vehicle dynamics in a low speed environment and the skills learned here translates to driving on track. And with the low cost of Auto-X you can do it every month.
This is a great way to get seat time in your car and learn car control. I think that this is a great way to get better without spending lots of $$$ also. The SCCA and PCA have great autocross events across the county.
This is a great way to get seat time in your car and learn car control. I think that this is a great way to get better without spending lots of $$$ also. The SCCA and PCA have great autocross events across the county.
05-04-2018, 01:35 PM
#33
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I do one or two DE events each year, and I just enjoy it for what it is.
I have no delusions of ever improving, because I know that whatever I learn will be forgotten.
I come back next year, and basically start over.
And that is just fine, since track driving is not a priority for me.
I fully intend to stay in Green forever, because that is the reality of skill acquisition.
You don't improve at anything if you only do it a once a year.
In fact, for the things I've developed expertise in, it required a period of nearly daily practice.
The hallowed and perhaps mythical 10,000 hours translates to 600,000 minutes.
If a DE session is 20 mins, that's 80 mins. a day. That's 7500 DE days.
That would means 20 straight years of going to a DE event every single day.
So, every time I attend a DE, I wonder to myself about the logistics of how the people there became skilled.
I'm assuming this did not happen by going to 2 DE's a year, like the casual dilettante.
By skilled, I mean anything beyond Green/Yellow.
What is your story?
Was there a period of time when you did tons of track driving?
How many days a month did you track during your steep learning period?
What is the path from Green DE to someone who drives like an expert ?
When someone decides, "I want to drive in Black group!", how does he even accomplish this?
Does he go to the track every day? Every weekend? Is this even possible?
Do they join a local track club? Do they join multiple driving clubs, and basically hit up like 20 DE's a season?
Is 20 even enough? You don't become great at something in only 20 days. Or even 100.
Basically, how did you get enough seat time to translate your time into true progress?
I am asking because I am interested in the subject of skill development, not because I want to drive in Black.
If you find this thread stupid, dumb, clueless, or obvious, I apologize, and ask you to please ignore it.
I have no delusions of ever improving, because I know that whatever I learn will be forgotten.
I come back next year, and basically start over.
And that is just fine, since track driving is not a priority for me.
I fully intend to stay in Green forever, because that is the reality of skill acquisition.
You don't improve at anything if you only do it a once a year.
In fact, for the things I've developed expertise in, it required a period of nearly daily practice.
The hallowed and perhaps mythical 10,000 hours translates to 600,000 minutes.
If a DE session is 20 mins, that's 80 mins. a day. That's 7500 DE days.
That would means 20 straight years of going to a DE event every single day.
So, every time I attend a DE, I wonder to myself about the logistics of how the people there became skilled.
I'm assuming this did not happen by going to 2 DE's a year, like the casual dilettante.
By skilled, I mean anything beyond Green/Yellow.
What is your story?
Was there a period of time when you did tons of track driving?
How many days a month did you track during your steep learning period?
What is the path from Green DE to someone who drives like an expert ?
When someone decides, "I want to drive in Black group!", how does he even accomplish this?
Does he go to the track every day? Every weekend? Is this even possible?
Do they join a local track club? Do they join multiple driving clubs, and basically hit up like 20 DE's a season?
Is 20 even enough? You don't become great at something in only 20 days. Or even 100.
Basically, how did you get enough seat time to translate your time into true progress?
I am asking because I am interested in the subject of skill development, not because I want to drive in Black.
If you find this thread stupid, dumb, clueless, or obvious, I apologize, and ask you to please ignore it.
That said - it is tough to get proficient at anything doing it 1-2 times/year. You asked for what I did...
1) Found a less expensive car to train on a local track that didn't require whole weekend events - i.e. miata
2) Found ways to do an hour of driving more frequently, rather than a full weekend - i.e. found a place to drive shorter sessions on my own schedule - which made it easier to do rather than have to commit to a full weeken
3) Drive go-karts whenever possible
4) Study - reviewing mapped lines on the same track from different vehicles at different speeds, reviewing video of drivers on tracks I drive on, visualizing what I was going to do when there, memorizing turns and flag locations - something you can do every now and then at home for an hour
5) Get good instruction - riding along with the right drivers or driving with them
That was my path. I consider myself a total rank amateur still but I'm comfortable on my own and I'm not spending an enormous amount of time to maintain some skill.
05-05-2018, 09:34 PM
#34
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It takes lots of seat time. Also helps to remain current. At least once a month.
Having a coach is the ulimate experience to fast track your way to better lap times and better feel for driving.
It takes alot of work.
I was banging out 12 track days a year for 3 years until I got my race license and fast tracked my way into club racing.
Now I do 24 race starts a year and still feel that it is not enough to stay as current as I would like to be between each race...
Alas, seat time cost time and money.
When I started, i thought it was a big deal to do D.E.
Then i thought it was a big deal to trailer my car to D.E.
Then I got my race license and thought club racing was a big deal.
Now i do arrive and drive in a series.
Next step is PWC/IMSA....
The bar just keeps on getting raised.
The journey is an interesting one.
Having a coach is the ulimate experience to fast track your way to better lap times and better feel for driving.
It takes alot of work.
I was banging out 12 track days a year for 3 years until I got my race license and fast tracked my way into club racing.
Now I do 24 race starts a year and still feel that it is not enough to stay as current as I would like to be between each race...
Alas, seat time cost time and money.
When I started, i thought it was a big deal to do D.E.
Then i thought it was a big deal to trailer my car to D.E.
Then I got my race license and thought club racing was a big deal.
Now i do arrive and drive in a series.
Next step is PWC/IMSA....
The bar just keeps on getting raised.
The journey is an interesting one.
05-08-2018, 11:34 AM
#35
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IMO, it's best to start with the goal. If someone just wants to do DE track days to have fun, and doesn't aspire to race, maybe it makes sense to do the number of track days they want to fit into their schedule and budget, and not worry so much about progress. If someone is doing one or two events a year, and continuing to have fun despite little or no improvement in skill, there's nothing really wrong with that. If they're getting bored or frustrated due to the lack of improvement, then they need to change their approach, with more seat time, instructing, coaching, car control practice, etc.
Also, to be a good hobbyist driver, we don't need anything like 10,000 hours. In my experience, most people can be become pretty good in 10 to 50 days (though improvement continues for most drivers as they gain more seat time), so we're talking more like only 20 to 100 hours. Compared to many or most sports, that's not a lot of time to develop basic competence, so I would argue that it's fairly 'easy' to become fairly good at driving - but not at all easy to reach true expert level (genetics are surely a factor there)!
Also, to be a good hobbyist driver, we don't need anything like 10,000 hours. In my experience, most people can be become pretty good in 10 to 50 days (though improvement continues for most drivers as they gain more seat time), so we're talking more like only 20 to 100 hours. Compared to many or most sports, that's not a lot of time to develop basic competence, so I would argue that it's fairly 'easy' to become fairly good at driving - but not at all easy to reach true expert level (genetics are surely a factor there)!
Last edited by Manifold; 05-08-2018 at 06:12 PM.
05-08-2018, 05:59 PM
#36
Drifting
I don't think progress is completely related to hours spent. I've done some sessions where I just went through the motions without really thinking about what I need to work on and it was time wasted and some short sessions where I had a goal and purpose on what I wanted to work on and learned a lot. Some sessions where I've learned the most and improved a lot I wasn't even driving but rather riding with someone faster and more experienced to see what lines they drive, what smooth inputs feel like and how much grip a car really has before it lets go.
You probably won't get a lot better if you go once a year but I think you can easily move up to blue if you go 3-5 times a year, have a good instructor and work on fundamental things. Conversely if you go 50 times a year and shuffler steer, drive the wrong line and practice other bad habits with no feedback or correction you won't get any faster either.
You probably won't get a lot better if you go once a year but I think you can easily move up to blue if you go 3-5 times a year, have a good instructor and work on fundamental things. Conversely if you go 50 times a year and shuffler steer, drive the wrong line and practice other bad habits with no feedback or correction you won't get any faster either.
05-08-2018, 06:14 PM
#37
Drifting
Instead of DE events you can also do Auto-X. You will learn vehicle dynamics in a low speed environment and the skills learned here translates to driving on track. And with the low cost of Auto-X you can do it every month.
This is a great way to get seat time in your car and learn car control. I think that this is a great way to get better without spending lots of $$$ also. The SCCA and PCA have great autocross events across the county.
This is a great way to get seat time in your car and learn car control. I think that this is a great way to get better without spending lots of $$$ also. The SCCA and PCA have great autocross events across the county.
As far as bang for the buck seat time it's not really that good either. Around here you get about 5-8 runs that are 60-90 seconds each for about 45 bucks and you stand around for 8 hours. There are 1 day HPDE's that are 150-200 bucks with four to five 20 minute sessions and no corner working.
05-08-2018, 06:38 PM
#38
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Off topic -- the 10,000 hours thing isn't even an accurate representation of the study from which that conclusion came. Read Peak, by the author of that study. And an excellent book on its own merits.
Getting good at something requires that you want to be good at it. I've found that people who want to be good do the things to make them better.
Getting good at something requires that you want to be good at it. I've found that people who want to be good do the things to make them better.
05-08-2018, 09:05 PM
#39
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In the old days at Skip Barber (and this goes on currently at all top-level pro schools), we saw people who were “naturals,” who were merely competent, those who were sensible, many who were very (even overly) cautious and, of course, those for whom OSB (other sports beckon...).
If they paid attention, summoned the proper concentration, focused on the best execution of fundamental skills, most could become pretty good by the end of the typical three-day program. As instructors, we would constantly ask ourselves if “we would go Wheel-to-Wheel with them” into a corner.
In the end, it was a fact that most could be trained, many wanted to do better and those that worked at it rose to the top. Also, it was clear that even raw talent, without instruction and mentoring, would only take drivers so far, and that a well educated, intensely focused and hard working driver could beat an uneducated, feckless and smug “natural talent” just about every time.
I come from an age when the way people learned was lead-follow, with good, comprehensive classroom briefings in between and lots of fundamental skill drills, until people demonstrated competence. The constant stream of info from the right seat was not an option, past skid pad training and threshold braking exercises. People had to KNOW what they were going to do next, not rely on being prompted or promoted...
This forced people to think more. To craft a plan for each and every session. THAT is the way I see every serious driver who wants to do better actually move forward in achieving their goal... my .02
05-09-2018, 07:42 AM
#40
Off topic -- the 10,000 hours thing isn't even an accurate representation of the study from which that conclusion came. Read Peak, by the author of that study. And an excellent book on its own merits.
Getting good at something requires that you want to be good at it. I've found that people who want to be good do the things to make them better.
Getting good at something requires that you want to be good at it. I've found that people who want to be good do the things to make them better.
Lots of people want to be a great musician, programmer, or athlete.
However, few do the work to get there.
While genetics and innate ability are huge in attaining expertise,
there is no substitute for deliberate practice, which Ericsson clearly described in his 10k hours study.
Yes, I've read the source study (chess players and violinists)
05-09-2018, 08:33 AM
#41
Rennlist Member
The idea that "genetics" or "innate ability" is required to be good is an excuse for those who aren't willing to try. Anyone with sustained effort can become "good." If you are conflating being a professional athlete with being "good" then I think you need to redefine the terms being used in this thread. Professional baseball players or racecar drivers are the truly great, the elite. They surpassed good a decade ago. But anyone, with few limited exceptions, can become good at just about anything they put their mind to.
There's also a difference between liking the idea of being good at something and wanting to be good at something. I'd like to be a good basketball player. But I don't watch videos on techniques, I don't read about the game, I don't attend clinics, I don't even play that often. But in the abstract I think it would be cool to be good at basketball. It's something I'd like to happen.
I want to be a good driver. I watch videos, I review data, I go to a racetrack as often as I am able, I discuss it with strangers on the internet, I have email threads with friends, I visualize myself on track when I have quiet moments, I make detailed plans about what I'm going to do each session.
I'll never be good at basketball.
There's also a difference between liking the idea of being good at something and wanting to be good at something. I'd like to be a good basketball player. But I don't watch videos on techniques, I don't read about the game, I don't attend clinics, I don't even play that often. But in the abstract I think it would be cool to be good at basketball. It's something I'd like to happen.
I want to be a good driver. I watch videos, I review data, I go to a racetrack as often as I am able, I discuss it with strangers on the internet, I have email threads with friends, I visualize myself on track when I have quiet moments, I make detailed plans about what I'm going to do each session.
I'll never be good at basketball.
05-09-2018, 09:04 AM
#42
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I think that genetic differences will affect natural ability, optimal learning methods, learning rate, and the upper limit of skill which a person can reach (few of us have what it takes to ever become a competitive F1 driver). That said, I agree that the vast majority of people who go to the track can get pretty good at driving in a matter of dozens of hours of 'deliberate practice'. The interesting thing about the deliberate practice associated with driving is that most people find it to be fun, which often isn't the case for the deliberate practice involved in other sports and other endeavors. I think this is a key part of the reason for the appeal of track driving - it's generally fun along the entire path from 0/0 novice to advanced amateur, and never really feels like 'work'.
05-09-2018, 09:26 AM
#43
Yeah. There's never been a session on track where I've felt like I'm just slogging through the motions to get better at it so later I can be good.
I play the guitar quite poorly. I'm not good, but I know some chords and can render an acceptable tune around a campfire if you tell me the notes. In order to get this mediocre, I spent a LOT of PAINFUL time practicing over and over until I could do it. That wasn't fun. That was a means to an end. I wanted to be able to play, so I put the effort in to grind myself to where I wanted to be. I like the idea of being genuinely good at it but I'm definitely not gonna put that effort in.
So... great analogy on the track driving. The entire process is fun. Time and money is the only reason we don't do it every day.
I play the guitar quite poorly. I'm not good, but I know some chords and can render an acceptable tune around a campfire if you tell me the notes. In order to get this mediocre, I spent a LOT of PAINFUL time practicing over and over until I could do it. That wasn't fun. That was a means to an end. I wanted to be able to play, so I put the effort in to grind myself to where I wanted to be. I like the idea of being genuinely good at it but I'm definitely not gonna put that effort in.
So... great analogy on the track driving. The entire process is fun. Time and money is the only reason we don't do it every day.
05-09-2018, 09:27 AM
#44
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I think that genetic differences will affect natural ability, optimal learning methods, learning rate, and the upper limit of skill which a person can reach (few of us have what it takes to ever become a competitive F1 driver). That said, I agree that the vast majority of people who go to the track can get pretty good at driving in a matter of dozens of hours of 'deliberate practice'. The interesting thing about the deliberate practice associated with driving is that most people find it to be fun, which often isn't the case for the deliberate practice involved in other sports and other endeavors. I think this is a key part of the reason for the appeal of track driving - it's generally fun along the entire path from 0/0 novice to advanced amateur, and never really feels like 'work'.
05-09-2018, 11:08 AM
#45
"I do one or two DE events each year, and I just enjoy it for what it is.
I fully intend to stay in Green forever, because that is the reality of skill acquisition.
So, every time I attend a DE, I wonder to myself about the logistics of how the people there became skilled.
Basically, how did you get enough seat time to translate your time into true progress?
I am asking because I am interested in the subject of skill development, not because I want to drive in Black."
Given your statements above, these are what helped ME (1) attend more DE events, (2) shift your mindset from merely "enjoying it for what it is" to being in a safe/fun learning environment, (3) listen to your instructors and debrief after each session, (4) talk to other drivers in the paddock between sessions and compare notes, tips, lines etc, (5) discuss these with your instructor (probably as you stage before going out for the next session), (6) try new things and evaluate what works and especially what DOESN'T work for you and your car and finally, (7) while going fast is important, focus more on improving your driving skills (i.e., looking ahead, smooth steering inputs, proper throttle and brake application, understanding weight transfer and balancing the car, etc) than your lap times. These should help a bit. Lastly, request rides with your instructors in their cars, it really helps to see (and FEEL) how a more experienced driver runs the same track...invaluable! Hope this helps.
I fully intend to stay in Green forever, because that is the reality of skill acquisition.
So, every time I attend a DE, I wonder to myself about the logistics of how the people there became skilled.
Basically, how did you get enough seat time to translate your time into true progress?
I am asking because I am interested in the subject of skill development, not because I want to drive in Black."
Given your statements above, these are what helped ME (1) attend more DE events, (2) shift your mindset from merely "enjoying it for what it is" to being in a safe/fun learning environment, (3) listen to your instructors and debrief after each session, (4) talk to other drivers in the paddock between sessions and compare notes, tips, lines etc, (5) discuss these with your instructor (probably as you stage before going out for the next session), (6) try new things and evaluate what works and especially what DOESN'T work for you and your car and finally, (7) while going fast is important, focus more on improving your driving skills (i.e., looking ahead, smooth steering inputs, proper throttle and brake application, understanding weight transfer and balancing the car, etc) than your lap times. These should help a bit. Lastly, request rides with your instructors in their cars, it really helps to see (and FEEL) how a more experienced driver runs the same track...invaluable! Hope this helps.