How do people become good at track driving? Once a year won't cut it.
05-02-2018, 11:32 PM
#1
How do people become good at track driving? Once a year won't cut it.
I do one or two DE events each year, and I just enjoy it for what it is.
I have no delusions of ever improving, because I know that whatever I learn will be forgotten.
I come back next year, and basically start over.
And that is just fine, since track driving is not a priority for me.
I fully intend to stay in Green forever, because that is the reality of skill acquisition.
You don't improve at anything if you only do it a once a year.
In fact, for the things I've developed expertise in, it required a period of nearly daily practice.
The hallowed and perhaps mythical 10,000 hours translates to 600,000 minutes.
If a DE session is 20 mins, that's 80 mins. a day. That's 7500 DE days.
That would means 20 straight years of going to a DE event every single day.
So, every time I attend a DE, I wonder to myself about the logistics of how the people there became skilled.
I'm assuming this did not happen by going to 2 DE's a year, like the casual dilettante.
By skilled, I mean anything beyond Green/Yellow.
What is your story?
Was there a period of time when you did tons of track driving?
How many days a month did you track during your steep learning period?
What is the path from Green DE to someone who drives like an expert ?
When someone decides, "I want to drive in Black group!", how does he even accomplish this?
Does he go to the track every day? Every weekend? Is this even possible?
Do they join a local track club? Do they join multiple driving clubs, and basically hit up like 20 DE's a season?
Is 20 even enough? You don't become great at something in only 20 days. Or even 100.
Basically, how did you get enough seat time to translate your time into true progress?
I am asking because I am interested in the subject of skill development, not because I want to drive in Black.
If you find this thread stupid, dumb, clueless, or obvious, I apologize, and ask you to please ignore it.
I have no delusions of ever improving, because I know that whatever I learn will be forgotten.
I come back next year, and basically start over.
And that is just fine, since track driving is not a priority for me.
I fully intend to stay in Green forever, because that is the reality of skill acquisition.
You don't improve at anything if you only do it a once a year.
In fact, for the things I've developed expertise in, it required a period of nearly daily practice.
The hallowed and perhaps mythical 10,000 hours translates to 600,000 minutes.
If a DE session is 20 mins, that's 80 mins. a day. That's 7500 DE days.
That would means 20 straight years of going to a DE event every single day.
So, every time I attend a DE, I wonder to myself about the logistics of how the people there became skilled.
I'm assuming this did not happen by going to 2 DE's a year, like the casual dilettante.
By skilled, I mean anything beyond Green/Yellow.
What is your story?
Was there a period of time when you did tons of track driving?
How many days a month did you track during your steep learning period?
What is the path from Green DE to someone who drives like an expert ?
When someone decides, "I want to drive in Black group!", how does he even accomplish this?
Does he go to the track every day? Every weekend? Is this even possible?
Do they join a local track club? Do they join multiple driving clubs, and basically hit up like 20 DE's a season?
Is 20 even enough? You don't become great at something in only 20 days. Or even 100.
Basically, how did you get enough seat time to translate your time into true progress?
I am asking because I am interested in the subject of skill development, not because I want to drive in Black.
If you find this thread stupid, dumb, clueless, or obvious, I apologize, and ask you to please ignore it.
Last edited by sugarwood; 05-02-2018 at 11:49 PM.
05-03-2018, 12:46 AM
#2
Practice, practice...
I do one or two DE events each year, and I just enjoy it for what it is.
I have no delusions of ever improving, because I know that whatever I learn will be forgotten.
I come back next year, and basically start over.
And that is just fine, since track driving is not a priority for me.
I fully intend to stay in Green forever, because that is the reality of skill acquisition.
You don't improve at anything if you only do it a once a year.
In fact, for the things I've developed expertise in, it required a period of nearly daily practice.
The hallowed and perhaps mythical 10,000 hours translates to 600,000 minutes.
If a DE session is 20 mins, that's 80 mins. a day. That's 7500 DE days.
That would means 20 straight years of going to a DE event every single day.
So, every time I attend a DE, I wonder to myself about the logistics of how the people there became skilled.
I'm assuming this did not happen by going to 2 DE's a year, like the casual dilettante.
By skilled, I mean anything beyond Green/Yellow.
What is your story?
Was there a period of time when you did tons of track driving?
How many days a month did you track during your steep learning period?
What is the path from Green DE to someone who drives like an expert ?
When someone decides, "I want to drive in Black group!", how does he even accomplish this?
Does he go to the track every day? Every weekend? Is this even possible?
Do they join a local track club? Do they join multiple driving clubs, and basically hit up like 20 DE's a season?
Is 20 even enough? You don't become great at something in only 20 days. Or even 100.
Basically, how did you get enough seat time to translate your time into true progress?
I am asking because I am interested in the subject of skill development, not because I want to drive in Black.
If you find this thread stupid, dumb, clueless, or obvious, I apologize, and ask you to please ignore it.
I have no delusions of ever improving, because I know that whatever I learn will be forgotten.
I come back next year, and basically start over.
And that is just fine, since track driving is not a priority for me.
I fully intend to stay in Green forever, because that is the reality of skill acquisition.
You don't improve at anything if you only do it a once a year.
In fact, for the things I've developed expertise in, it required a period of nearly daily practice.
The hallowed and perhaps mythical 10,000 hours translates to 600,000 minutes.
If a DE session is 20 mins, that's 80 mins. a day. That's 7500 DE days.
That would means 20 straight years of going to a DE event every single day.
So, every time I attend a DE, I wonder to myself about the logistics of how the people there became skilled.
I'm assuming this did not happen by going to 2 DE's a year, like the casual dilettante.
By skilled, I mean anything beyond Green/Yellow.
What is your story?
Was there a period of time when you did tons of track driving?
How many days a month did you track during your steep learning period?
What is the path from Green DE to someone who drives like an expert ?
When someone decides, "I want to drive in Black group!", how does he even accomplish this?
Does he go to the track every day? Every weekend? Is this even possible?
Do they join a local track club? Do they join multiple driving clubs, and basically hit up like 20 DE's a season?
Is 20 even enough? You don't become great at something in only 20 days. Or even 100.
Basically, how did you get enough seat time to translate your time into true progress?
I am asking because I am interested in the subject of skill development, not because I want to drive in Black.
If you find this thread stupid, dumb, clueless, or obvious, I apologize, and ask you to please ignore it.
05-03-2018, 12:57 AM
#3
Not stupid at all. Very sane question.
Like most things, the more you do it--along with getting good instruction along the way--the better you get, especially if you're able to self diagnose issues and self correct.
There is no substitute for seat time, especially if you obtain it on a variety of tracks under a variety of conditions (dry, wet, damp, cold, hot, etc.).
I recommend signing up for two (two-day) events with Chin Track Days, which is a great organization with great instructors. The benefit and differentiator of Chin is max track time per day, essentially three full hours a day are usually available. (You will sleep well that night, too.). Those four days on the track will turbocharge your development.
To maximize each day at the track, watch videos of good drivers driving the tracks you drive. I don't necessarily recommend race drivers, just good ones.
Also, try to go on actual track walks with pro instructors, which I have found to be invaluable. If actual walks aren't available, Ross Bentley and Peter Krause sell videos and texts of many good track walks.
If you really want to improve, take each day at the track seriously and try to focus on one or two things each session. Experiment and try different things, too. Things like different shift points, braking points, lines, etc.
Also, once you move to solo, try to grab an instructor for a session every now and then. Mix up solo and instruction driving.
You can also "practice" with regular street driving by trying to visualize where the apex of the off-ramp might be. Obviously speeds will be different and watch out when you're tracking out ... but bringing the track to your every-day driving helps a tad.
I went from the greenest of greens to being promoted to black (by a chief instructor) in the equivalent of two full seasons. You can, too.
Like most things, the more you do it--along with getting good instruction along the way--the better you get, especially if you're able to self diagnose issues and self correct.
There is no substitute for seat time, especially if you obtain it on a variety of tracks under a variety of conditions (dry, wet, damp, cold, hot, etc.).
I recommend signing up for two (two-day) events with Chin Track Days, which is a great organization with great instructors. The benefit and differentiator of Chin is max track time per day, essentially three full hours a day are usually available. (You will sleep well that night, too.). Those four days on the track will turbocharge your development.
To maximize each day at the track, watch videos of good drivers driving the tracks you drive. I don't necessarily recommend race drivers, just good ones.
Also, try to go on actual track walks with pro instructors, which I have found to be invaluable. If actual walks aren't available, Ross Bentley and Peter Krause sell videos and texts of many good track walks.
If you really want to improve, take each day at the track seriously and try to focus on one or two things each session. Experiment and try different things, too. Things like different shift points, braking points, lines, etc.
Also, once you move to solo, try to grab an instructor for a session every now and then. Mix up solo and instruction driving.
You can also "practice" with regular street driving by trying to visualize where the apex of the off-ramp might be. Obviously speeds will be different and watch out when you're tracking out ... but bringing the track to your every-day driving helps a tad.
I went from the greenest of greens to being promoted to black (by a chief instructor) in the equivalent of two full seasons. You can, too.
05-03-2018, 01:02 AM
#4
Would love to answer this in more depth but just returned from a day of days @ Mosport--gotta get up early tomorrow and get tires done for Mid-O next 
Go to the track. You know you want to
The rest will take care of itself.....
Gary
....good night....
Go to the track. You know you want to
The rest will take care of itself.....Gary
....good night....
05-03-2018, 07:00 AM
#5
The easy answer is seat time. Sims and Karting can help as well.
But I think it really is more than that.
Perfect practice makes perfect. If you want to get better you have to take advantage of the time you have. I don't believe simply pounding out tons of laps necessarily makes you better. In fact, if it reinforces bad habits it can make you worse,
I think you also have to temper expectations. If you only track once a year even with solid instruction you will most likely not be as good as someone going each month.
When I first started I was tracking nearly every month. Once I made solo, TWS had a group that would let you do up to 8 sessions a day. One weekend I did like 13 sessions. Would've done more but there was fog one morning.
However, when I was asking around for data of faster laps, one of Time Trial guys shared with me a lap that was 8 seconds faster than I was at that point and this guy only drove about 4 times a year and even then only did about 10 laps a weekend. I was probably driving more than a 1000 laps a year at that point. So why was he much faster?
I really started to become a data junkie and texasRS became a mentor to me and truly helped me with data and video review. My track time became much more purposeful.
This past year I was able to win NASA TX TT3 championship and set 5 track records, I drive a lot less than I did starting out.
I still have so much to learn and improve and lately I spend too much time working on car at track instead of having purposeful practice and I have started to see my driving backslide a bit.
If you want to get to advanced group you will have to put in more instructed time up front. I also believe strongly in spacing so I'd rather do fewer sessions a day but do as many consecutive days as possible. Make sure to get a good datalogger and camera. Solo DL with smartycam is a great investment. Because once you make solo you'll need to learn how to analyze and improve your own driving . You should still seek out coaching but I do believe you have to balance it with self development.
Very few advanced DE drivers get 10,000 hours so I wouldn't get too hung up on that, but most are driving 1 weekend a month consistently. I know a few that do fewer weekends now.
Remember to have fun. I forget that part too often.
But I think it really is more than that.
Perfect practice makes perfect. If you want to get better you have to take advantage of the time you have. I don't believe simply pounding out tons of laps necessarily makes you better. In fact, if it reinforces bad habits it can make you worse,
I think you also have to temper expectations. If you only track once a year even with solid instruction you will most likely not be as good as someone going each month.
When I first started I was tracking nearly every month. Once I made solo, TWS had a group that would let you do up to 8 sessions a day. One weekend I did like 13 sessions. Would've done more but there was fog one morning.
However, when I was asking around for data of faster laps, one of Time Trial guys shared with me a lap that was 8 seconds faster than I was at that point and this guy only drove about 4 times a year and even then only did about 10 laps a weekend. I was probably driving more than a 1000 laps a year at that point. So why was he much faster?
I really started to become a data junkie and texasRS became a mentor to me and truly helped me with data and video review. My track time became much more purposeful.
This past year I was able to win NASA TX TT3 championship and set 5 track records, I drive a lot less than I did starting out.
I still have so much to learn and improve and lately I spend too much time working on car at track instead of having purposeful practice and I have started to see my driving backslide a bit.
If you want to get to advanced group you will have to put in more instructed time up front. I also believe strongly in spacing so I'd rather do fewer sessions a day but do as many consecutive days as possible. Make sure to get a good datalogger and camera. Solo DL with smartycam is a great investment. Because once you make solo you'll need to learn how to analyze and improve your own driving . You should still seek out coaching but I do believe you have to balance it with self development.
Very few advanced DE drivers get 10,000 hours so I wouldn't get too hung up on that, but most are driving 1 weekend a month consistently. I know a few that do fewer weekends now.
Remember to have fun. I forget that part too often.
05-03-2018, 07:29 AM
#6
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Seat time without expert guidance won’t get you there. I dabbled around for several years in the hobby. I improved with the seat time but not that much. One weekend with Chris Hall allowed me to match or exceed the improvement in the previous several years. Both experiencing his driving from the right seat, and learning from the data allowed for quick improvement.
From that point on I became a believer in pro coaching, taking advantage of the perspectives of Dave Scott, Ron Zitza, John Miller, and Eric Powell, all of whom I hired to coach me..
I’ve taken a break from the hobby the past few years while helping my daughters get through college.. I plan on utilizing coaching again once I start tracking more in the future. So yes, seat time, but also pro coaching.
From that point on I became a believer in pro coaching, taking advantage of the perspectives of Dave Scott, Ron Zitza, John Miller, and Eric Powell, all of whom I hired to coach me..
I’ve taken a break from the hobby the past few years while helping my daughters get through college.. I plan on utilizing coaching again once I start tracking more in the future. So yes, seat time, but also pro coaching.
05-03-2018, 08:01 AM
#7
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All said:
- do trackdays, I do about 10 a year, even afterwork session (2 hours) help
- get pro tuition
- once more advanced, use data / telemetry, work with pros, get reference laps from them and understand gaps
- do drifting events to improve car control
- go to ice driving events, done that numerous times in the alps and even in Lapland, will help improve car control
- even at 7/10ths, make sure you remember basic stuff on public roads, become more aware of what you are doing behind the wheel
Best
Sven
- do trackdays, I do about 10 a year, even afterwork session (2 hours) help
- get pro tuition
- once more advanced, use data / telemetry, work with pros, get reference laps from them and understand gaps
- do drifting events to improve car control
- go to ice driving events, done that numerous times in the alps and even in Lapland, will help improve car control
- even at 7/10ths, make sure you remember basic stuff on public roads, become more aware of what you are doing behind the wheel
Best
Sven
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05-03-2018, 08:14 AM
#8
Rennlist Member
I concur with all that others have posted here. And I will add extra emphasis to participating in every professional level track walk you can get
05-03-2018, 08:35 AM
#9
Three Wheelin'
Good advice above. There is no substitute for seat time. The best/fastest way to improve is driving your car on track, frequently and with professional help. Not everyone has time and means to do that. A few DE events per year can get you there too - it will just take longer. It is possible to progress through the run groups in several seasons this way if your driving skills are up to it. Karting, simulators, and autocross are a good way to put in extra time to develop some your skills on a lower budget.
Scott
Scott
05-03-2018, 09:53 AM
#10
I do one or two DE events each year, and I just enjoy it for what it is.
I have no delusions of ever improving
track driving is not a priority for me.
I fully intend to stay in Green forever
decides, "I want to drive in Black group!", how does he even accomplish this?
not because I want to drive in Black.
I have no delusions of ever improving
track driving is not a priority for me.
I fully intend to stay in Green forever
decides, "I want to drive in Black group!", how does he even accomplish this?
not because I want to drive in Black.
Through said fog I read and edited your post to show you how many times you're contradicting yourself. You enjoy your 1 or 2 events a year, you're good in Green "forever", and track driving is not a priority for you. That last statement right there raises a red flag in my eyes; if you're not willing to commit to try and improve, what's the point? Then just do your 1 or 2 days and "enjoy it for what it is", as you say.
Then, even though you don't want to drive in Black, you ask what it takes to get there, which to me contradicts all you say above.
You need to decide what you want to do. If you're indeed happy with one or two drives a year, all the rest is moot. If you want to improve, then do what all the pros, instructors and other experienced good folk here are telling you to do; they've all BTDT (me too
)One thing to ask yourself: Do you really enjoy the vibe from going to the track? I've been doing this for over 20 years and have done several hundred days, and I'm still buzzing this morning from yesterday (doing well at Mosport, one of the most daunting/rewarding tracks you'll ever drive, helps with this
) and can't wait to go again next week. Food for thought....Sincerely HTH and hope I'm not being harsh.
Gary
......off to get tires flipped......
Last edited by gbuff; 05-03-2018 at 11:10 AM.
05-03-2018, 11:06 AM
#11
I am relatively new to this so maybe I can offer a different perspective. I started in November of last year and have participated with 5 different groups/schools and started in green with all of them. I've been promoted every single weekend with each group. Now, I am either blue solo or advanced (depending on if I've driven with them recently enough). There hasn't been one weekend where I don't get a promotion, and I think there are a couple of reasons for that.
The biggest reason in my opinion, isn't that I am on track between those events (although that is a major factor), but that I am driving every single day in my head. I've driven whatever track I am about to go to a hundred times before I ever step foot on the track. On top of that, I take mental notes of what I did on track that could be improved on and I practice that technique over and over again in my head Right now, it is trail braking and having a more linear release of the brake pedal into apex.
The last time I was out on track was last weekend but since then, I've trail braked hundreds of corners - just in my head. I found that by doing this, the next time I go out, I am a little better at what I am trying to do without even going out on the track. On top of that, I also use the daily driving for learning exercises - mainly improving vision. Now I can see what the traffic is doing way before the guy in front of me and already know what to do before I get to that spot. I also have my seat in a good driving position and if a turn is coming up, my hands are always on 9 and 3 while I try to make that turn as smoothly as possible. It's easy to get to 10,000 hours if you practice outside of the track.
Off track practice in traffic and mentally has probably been the main reason I am significantly more aware on the track and have recently been able to put down respectable lap times. Not lightning fast like some of the guys, Thundermoose for example, but fast enough to keep up with the pace.
The biggest reason in my opinion, isn't that I am on track between those events (although that is a major factor), but that I am driving every single day in my head. I've driven whatever track I am about to go to a hundred times before I ever step foot on the track. On top of that, I take mental notes of what I did on track that could be improved on and I practice that technique over and over again in my head Right now, it is trail braking and having a more linear release of the brake pedal into apex.
The last time I was out on track was last weekend but since then, I've trail braked hundreds of corners - just in my head. I found that by doing this, the next time I go out, I am a little better at what I am trying to do without even going out on the track. On top of that, I also use the daily driving for learning exercises - mainly improving vision. Now I can see what the traffic is doing way before the guy in front of me and already know what to do before I get to that spot. I also have my seat in a good driving position and if a turn is coming up, my hands are always on 9 and 3 while I try to make that turn as smoothly as possible. It's easy to get to 10,000 hours if you practice outside of the track.
Off track practice in traffic and mentally has probably been the main reason I am significantly more aware on the track and have recently been able to put down respectable lap times. Not lightning fast like some of the guys, Thundermoose for example, but fast enough to keep up with the pace.
05-03-2018, 11:14 AM
#12
Three Wheelin'
I'd recommend you check out Ross Bentley's content on this topic. He covers the impact of purposeful practice, and how it expands on seat time. He also recommends the book Peak by Ericsson. It talks about how the 10,000 hr rule is misunderstood and doesn't tell the whole story.
Speaking personally, I try to have a goal to always improve and prioritize it 2nd, just behind safety, and way ahead of comfort and convenience. To me, it simply means devote more energy to skill acquisition (self study, instruction, practice, critique, etc) than my peers. Have the delusion of improving, of being much better than you are, and make it a priority.
Speaking personally, I try to have a goal to always improve and prioritize it 2nd, just behind safety, and way ahead of comfort and convenience. To me, it simply means devote more energy to skill acquisition (self study, instruction, practice, critique, etc) than my peers. Have the delusion of improving, of being much better than you are, and make it a priority.
05-03-2018, 12:29 PM
#13
Instead of DE events you can also do Auto-X. You will learn vehicle dynamics in a low speed environment and the skills learned here translates to driving on track. And with the low cost of Auto-X you can do it every month.
05-03-2018, 02:23 PM
#14
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Don't get too hung up on timeframes, everyone is different. Others have given you good advice on how to progress--more seat time, mix in autocross, karting, and other events if you can't fit DE in your schedule will all help.
That said, if you're really looking for a general overview of how long it takes most drivers.,, On average--and mind you only based on what I've seen personally--someone doing 4-5 weekends per year typically spends about 1yr in each run group but will usually plateau in the middle somewhere until they get more seat time. Those who actually want to move to more advanced levels do more like 8+ events per year, study, and soak up as much coaching as they can. Hope that helps.
That said, if you're really looking for a general overview of how long it takes most drivers.,, On average--and mind you only based on what I've seen personally--someone doing 4-5 weekends per year typically spends about 1yr in each run group but will usually plateau in the middle somewhere until they get more seat time. Those who actually want to move to more advanced levels do more like 8+ events per year, study, and soak up as much coaching as they can. Hope that helps.
05-03-2018, 02:31 PM
#15
Registered User
I’m a newbie. 7 Hpde over 2 years. First one of the year I am all over the place. Lots of cussing to myself on my helmet. By the second day way better...
but it if you only do 3 or so a year, I find you forget everything by the next year. Especially if your daily driver is an automatic, and track car is stick.
but it if you only do 3 or so a year, I find you forget everything by the next year. Especially if your daily driver is an automatic, and track car is stick.