forklift

I have been to about 7 DEs at Summit Point (Friday at the Track, FATT), 4 of them were back in '98 in my RX-7, and then the last three held this year. This year I was promoted to group 2 after my first two outings. Group 2 is intermediate to expert, and I am definately intermidiate (but feel good about my progress, not too good though) and have the following questions (please feel free to pick and choose any):

1. Although I feel good about my line, I need to fine tune braking points. I am sure some of you use trail braking on some corners. Which corners do you use trail braking on and could you please describe your speed and technique? I spoke to a Ferrari instructor a few weeks ago who said I should always be on the edge of the friction circle. I understand what this means, but realize at this point I am not doing that completely. I have looked up Summit Point and trail braking in the archives, but have not found much. I think I will go to the carts at Dulles to practice trail braking in the next few weeks. Any comments on trail braking in a 911 are welcome!

2. I realize it depends on the car (I have a 964), but do you shift into fourth gear between turn 2 and turn 3 (I hit redline about 200 yards before turn in, in 3rd gear, should I short shift, or keep near redline)?

3. How fast do you go through the shoot? I don't have time to look down, but am going fairly quickly in 4th (maybe 110?)

4. One again I know it depends on the car, but do you take turn 10 in third or fourth gear, and what is your speed at track out? My instructor has a 996 Turbo and carries enough speed in fourth, I don't and bog the engine in fourth. In third I hit redline right at track out, which is about 100 mph.

5. Just for the hell of it what do you reach on the straight? I redline fourth which is just at 140. I think if I can get out of 10 in fourth (take it faster) I could probably use the shift to fifth.

Thanks and any replies on these, Summit Point, or trail braking are welcome! I have much to learn and am trying to do that. I have read Skip Barber's book, but need to buy the updated one and read again.

Jim

Matt Romanowski

Trail braking is a tough thing to transfer from one person/car/style to another. There are also many degrees to trail braking and it's used differently in many situations.

To be truthful, in the 914 I am often times a little "sloppy" and do things too long or at the technically "incorrect" time, but it works becuase of my familiarity with the car and it's set up. In a 944, I can do similar things. In a 911, I'm much more concious of what I'm doing and drive much more disciplined.

To comment on the Ferrari instructor, their are many ways to be on the edge of the friction circle. You can be fully turning, braking, accelerating, or any combo to get 100% of the cars ability. If you watch people like Sideways Stefan in the Ruf video, he's way over 100% most of the time. You sort of have to just get seat time and get used to your car.

Matt

Chris Martin

I am by far an expert at this stuff, but I take 10 in 3rd and shift to 4th pretty quickly once onto the straight. If I stay in 4th I am have no acceleration out of the turn. Of course, the times where I get turn 10 right are less than I wish, but when it's right, it's a lotta fun.

forklift

Thanks guys,

After looking into it further I have found that some trail brake into 1 and 5 (which I have done before, by overcooking, not on purpose), and some do in 10, which I am a ways off from trying. I have not read anyone doing it in 3.

I bought the Ruf Fazination video a few months ago and watch it often, it is truly amazing.

I think I will be able to take 10 in fourth as I learn it better and getting a light weight flywheel might help as when I exit in fourth. Now the tach. shows about 4200 or so (in fourth), which is a bit to low as the car is set up now. With a bit more speed though and the LWF I should be able to go through in fourth.

Dbltime

Jim,

In a stock 993 6 speed this is my lap style at Summit Point. Gradually work up to what works and feels right for you. This info is by no means "the ideal" lap just what I like.


Exit turn one flat out staying flat out through 2 using 105% of the track out room. (red mud hole track left after access road) shift up to 4th without question before turn 3 braking zone . If you are on fresh race rubber you can scrub off enough speed, stay in 4th, turn in and squeeze the throttle on through turn 3. If the grip is less than perfect downshift to 3rd. From T3 to the braking zone for 5 is flat out. I add throttle gradually through the practice laps to make sure I am connecting the dots accurately. Do not rush up on traffic in the chute as a car jabbing the brakes at 4 will send you backwards into the tire wall. Turn 5, the 2nd gear left hander has more lines than a legal pad. I prefer to get it over with and get back on the throttle for the short launch to 6. Entering T5 there is a concrete patch in the asphalt that creates a V with the left curbing. Left front wheel aims for the V and pivot the car and get back on the throttle. Exit of T6 determines the lap time and top speed at 1. If you have the cadence right you will add throttle/speed through 7, 8, 9 and scream to 10. Downshift to third and struggle to get back off the track out curbing since you used every inch exiting T10. You should require a upshift before the track out curb ends and hit 5th at the s/f line.
T4,9 & 10 can be unforgiving if you screw up. Think about your counter plan.

Dbltime

2nd gear through T5 flat out jab the brakes for turn in T6 shift to 3rd mid way through T6 adding throttle methodically. This will launch you through the short straight to T6. Upshift to 4th at T9 exit. A stock RSA on Hoosiers should be 1:25/27. Ignore the lap times and focus on getting through the corner smoothly and back on the throttle with increasing exit speed. All of a sudden you are working less and turning 1:24's! Find your cars limits through the twisties without exceeding it. Very tiny steering input/correction to stay on the grip edge opening the wheel up asap. The steering input and throttle input are directly related.

Thats the way I see it but use at your own risk ;->

forklift

awsome, thanks. I have Yoko 0-32s, but will be moving to Toyo's after I burn those out....it is driven to the track.

John Brown

I just happened to come across an old article on the line at SP. It is old and maybe something has changed since it was written. Or, maybe not. The fellow who did the article had some passing familiarity with the track or so I would think.

This is Bill Scott talking about turn 5 at SP, page 54, Sportscar (date/issue unkown); " ... if you're a trailbraking advocate, this is the only corner where it might make sense."

Renn 951

I wonder if Bill's going to give us a Track Guide for getting around the Shenandoah Circuit? It could be real interesting figuring that one out for the first time!

Carrera51

Trailbraking in turn 10. WHY?????? You want to be on the gas as early as possible. I trail brake 1 (sometimes) and 5 (sometimes) and 6 (a little tap to rotate the rear). I refrain from doing it at all in the rain. Yes, you can brake and turn a 911. The fast way to drive one is to play with the *** end a little. They tend to enjoy it. The problem is every now and then it will give you an Oh Sh__ moment. My car gets me every now and then when I get a little too cute with sliding the rear around.

Also, you got some bad advice from the Ferrari guy about driving at the limit. In a student group with just a few days of track time, looking for the car's limit can lead to looking for a bodyshop, or a new car, or the hospital.

Since 1998, you done 7 track days. You are just scratching the surface of your RSA's ability. I've been driving my Carrera on the track since 1999 (lots of DE and 11 races) I am quite certain I haven't mastered it yet.

jerome951

I tend to trail brake at both 1, 3 & 5 to get my car to rotate, but that's because it's a 951 with stock suspension and alignment, which makes it turn like an understeering battleship. I don't think you have that issue in your 911.

If you are taking 4 at a good pace, you enter 5 near the left side of the track, which negates some of the advantage of trailbraking because the entry to the turn then becomes very short.

Remember that trailbraking becomes much less forgiving at higher speeds, so I'd recommend avoiding it at 10.

As far as shifting, my opinion is if you're shifting at the track out point, just stay in the higher gear. Less upsetting to the car and easier on the mechanicals. Plus, as you start to go faster, you will end up shifting earlier and that shift point then moves before trackout (not a good thing).

I drove the carts at Dulles for the first time a few weeks ago. Not much opportunity to practice trailbraking (at least for my 220# weight) because I only needed 2 brake taps each lap. However, it is a good chance to practice smoothness and maximizing momentum.

forklift

Thanks for the input, I way off TBing in 10 (if ever), but have done in 1 and 5 from overcooking. Carrera51, I realize I have a long way to go which is why I stated I have much to learn and am asking questions here.

Looking forward to Dulles karts.....

Jeff Curtis

Forklift, 1:35s at Summit is a good conservative lap...keep attending DEs and you will automatically pickup more speed as you become more familiar with the course -AND- more acquainted with your RSA

Trailbraking is the LAST thing you need to worry about now, IMHO...get the line down, decide which side of the track you want to be on at the end of the chute, etc. and you will automatically pickup speed with more experience.

Another thing, you drive your RSA to the track...that tells me a couple of things:

A) your tires are "decent" for trackdays, excellent when compared to street tires

B) you're probably not setup for the track when considering alignment, etc.

SO, some things that you may experience are not what say, Carrera51 are as we both have TOTAL track setup 911s.

I dunno how one would trail brake into turn 3, but Jerome apparently pulls it off and finds it necessary...I would NEVER trailbrake into turn 3 as I'm used to slamming 4th up between 2 and 3, just blipping the brakes as I downshift for turn 3 at the 2nd infield access road so I can power uphill and hit 4th good and hard as I run over the curbing on the right side, throwing gravel/rocks all over the people behind me. Heh heh.

The Chute, well, that will always be a good arguing point...but the guys that get a bit ahead of you in that area should be listened to. I come to the far left, like most and use the curbing on the right for apex...okay, so far...normal.

I tend to ride the inside of 5 like no other, it's a good place to pass if you're confident and carrying good speed at exit as some drivers swing out to the right before turn in, usually from mid-track, sometimes the far right.

I take T6 to the inside a bit too often as well, but that's what I've grown to do...probably just a bad habit?

Okay, the rest of the twisty bits are just that, figure out a "neat" way through them and high-tail it up through 9...do NOT pinch it off either!! Go all the way out to the left and power up under the bridge into 4th.

This is where there's an important decision to be made using these factors:

1) are your tires good and warm??

2) is your car sticking good

3) are you experiencing more oversteer or understeer today?

4) assess yourself as a driver...are you ready for the back-end to drift out a bit and live with it??

Those are VERY important things to ask yourself...oh yeah, the 5th - is my bodyshop guy on vacation for the next few weeks or is he ready to go?? ...just kidding...or am I??

Turn 10 is where I have seen the most incidents, by far...you can carry a lot of speed through there, and 4th is an option if you're SAILING and the car is sticking well. Sometimes I redline through there in 3rd and pound 4th prior to trackout, that seems to be faster...but if I'm taking it easy 4th can be a nice alternative.

The argument for 3rd in my book is best defended by the fact that the 964, and the SC/Carrera, I would imagine is a bit more controllable in 3rd gear through T10. With Bill's 993 6-spd, his 4th gear is a bit lower than ours and probably optimal for that turn??

With that said, again, every track is going to be different...keep trying things at a reasonable level and you'll eventually figure out why guys change their gearing, etc.

Personally, I wish my 4th gear was a bit lower so that I could go through T3 and T10 to the floor with confidence...but that's an expensive undertaking. (changing gearsets)

Okay, I've babbled enough, and to say what most others have: although I have LOTS of track time at the Point - I, in no way, shape or form have it beat...just yet.

Maybe someone like Manny will chime in, he's got a 964 that rockets right by me at ANY event!

Carrera51

Jeff:
I see you edited my post. I apologize for my use of the "S" word and will behave better in the future .

Forklift:
I hope I didn't offend you with my post. I was just pointing out that 911s in the hands of us weekend track guys can take a while to master (if we ever do). I offer the same advice to students I get in the car with as far as not trying to push to hard to soon. I feel bad when I see green or blue student cars coming off the track on a flatbed because the driver went off and damaged the car. It doesn't happen often, but has on occasion.

forklift

Thanks guys for all the great info!

951, I just put off a bit because I tried to convey in my first post that I am a beginner and that I have much to learn, but trying to educate myself (even on techniques beyond me for now). I am working up to my limits and do not want to even go off the track much less into a wall. I feel comfortable with my line (but know it is not perfect) and my instructors must as well or I would not be in group two (which I am comfortable in).

With that being said I respect your experience and would like to maybe have you instruct me at an upcoming FATT or pca DE (sincere)? Not sure how the PCA DEs will work for me as I have to go to a High Performance Driving Clinic prior to attending a DE and the first one is 4/17. On that weekend I have to be at a wedding in CA. The next HPDC is near the end of the season. Last year I joined PCA for attending DEs and they were all sold out and it looks like I won't be attending many this year either (you can also bypass the HPDCs with three autoxs, but they have not been posted). I am signed up for the 1st FATT.


Thanks again,

Jim