Brian P

I take T3 and T10 in 4th, but then again, my car maxes out in 3rd at about 84MPH. I hit about 120MPH on the front straight. However, I drive a relatively underpowered car.

My short answer... pretend you never heard the phrase trailbraking. There's a lot more to be learned before you need to work on that.

Long answer...
I was recently in the same boat as you in that I was an intermediate trying to figure out where to pick up lap time. Trailbraking seemed like a great way to do it as it allows you to delay braking a bit. This means that you are on the gas while others (non-trailbrakers) are on the brakes.

At one event this past season, I corded my track tires and also had some braking issues (the car would wander under high speed braking) This combination caused me to be much gentler on the brakes which in turn meant that my car was much better balanced entering the turn. Having the car much better balanced allowed me to see how much faster I could take the turn.

My lap times dropped by about 6 seconds.

Now, I don't even bother with trail braking until I'm sure that I'm taking the corner as fast as I can. Until that point, I'll brake at about 80% strength to keep the car better balanced. Once I'm taking the corner at what I think is max speed, then I'll start playing with the braking.

Finally, in the past, I've had instructors tell me that trail braking is an advanced technique, and I took it as a bit of an insult. I felt they were saying that I had to be advanced driver to learn how to trail brake. I now realize that's not what they were saying. Anybody can learn to trailbrake, but you need to be advanced driver before it will make much of a difference in lap times.

Brian P

Forklift,

You might also want to try doing some DE events with other PCA clubs. Not all of them require a HPDC session before doing DE. It's possible that your local club might allow you into their events if you already have outside experience. For that matter, they might allow you in with your FATT experience.

Jeff Curtis

Forklift, are you talking about Potomac region requiring a HPDC prior to attending a DE??? I'm not familiar with that rule, although I am not a Potomac Region member nor did I startout with them doing DE...I came to them with Instructor experience...so I am not aware of that rule.

If so, I would think your FATT and autocross days would get you in.

Checkout NASA events at www.nasaracing.net - there is a 2004 schedule up, even involves a couple weekends on the highly anticipated Shenandoah Circuit!! Aaaaaaaah, now won't THAT be fun?

Renn 951

As I understand the PCA Potomac policy this year, it is the "zero track time" people that need to do an HPDC prior to signing up for a DE event.

Forklift, you should be OK if you did 3 DE's at Summit last year.

Renn 951

Forklift:

PCA Potomac gives terrific bang for the buck -- you get two days at Summit for less money than a single day FATT event. They will also do a couple dates on the new Shenandoah Circuit at Summit this year. And definitely try to get to VIR if at all possible!

BrandonH

It wasn't until I'd read half the thread that my brain recognized "trail braking" instead of reading "left foot braking." I only have one DE weekend and a race weekend at SP, (and half of each in the rain) so I'm by no means an SP authority. But at first impressions, SP would not be my choice for learning trail braking, because of the track's braking extremes: T1 and T5 are really heavy braking areas where carrying brakes deep into the corner will have dire consequences if misjudged. (brakes which seem to me colder than other tracks because they cool down on that long straight) The other corners are more of the touch-and-go variety, where you are braking to settle the nose for turn in rather than using the brakes to rotate the car.
OTOH, left foot braking opportunities abound at SP: T3 is a perfect left foot brake corner, and so is T10 at least if you are not changing gears ( I do T3 in 3rd and T10 in 4th) I have a feeling that left-foot brakes through T6/7 would also be great although I guess there is a 2-3 shift in there so I don't know.

Brandon 1:30ish @ SP in 911SC G car

PS: long shot- anyone at the Thunderhill Quattro club DE this weekend? I'll be in the Mini Cooper rental...

jasonvp

Forklift -

I wonder if we've run across one another at a FATT recently. I was at the very last one in November (I missed the December one,) were you attending that one? This is the one where a close friend of mine wrecked his Vette in turn 1 (a moment of silence if you will.. poor car.) I've been FATT'ing at Summit now for almost 7 years, but in a completely different car than you. So my driving style might not exactly apply.

I agree with everyone else thus far: forget trail braking, ignore trail braking, pretend you've never heard of it. At a FATT, it isn't going to help. Also, don't focus on top speed down the big straight because you'll only set yourself up for trouble in turn 1. Make up the difference in the "talent" part of the track. My car can easily hit shy of 150 down the big straight, but I keep a lid on it and stop accelerating when I hit ~130 or so. It allows me to relax through the braking zone and be back on the gas quick. Because of this, my car ('99 Corvette, modified by Lingenfelter) is close to its rev limiter in 3rd gear before I exit 2. That's close to 120MPH or so, so sayeth the speedo. If I barrel into the corner at 150 and ride the ABS, I'm lucky to have 3/4ths of that exit speed from 2.

(That whole "in slow, out fast" mantra really works. :-))

Turn 3 is a bear, but I've been taught by one of the head instructors how to 'cheat' at it. Along the right side of the course there's a small pit in the road. You go over it so fast you barely feel it, but it's there. His trick was to start turning the minute the front tires cleared that bump, which is quite a few yards short of the marked turn-in spot. The road comes up to meet you but you find you're at the wrong angle to apex the corner correctly, so you have to crank in a tad bit more steering. It's ok, because this whole time you're carrying 5-10MPH more speed through the turn.

I didn't believe the instructor at first, but I kept practicing it. He's right. :-)

My favorite part of the track is the chute, but inevitably I get caught behind some weenie who taps his brakes at the entrance of 4. It makes going down it flat-out a little dangerous. I can usually hit 100MPH or so down it when the track is clear.

Turn 5 is a throw-away corner. Just come out of it set up for 6. Take 6 late, lift at the entrance of 7 for the TTO (careful in a 911... :-)) and then go through 8 and 9, taking 9 a tad bit earlier than suggested. There's enough road on the outside of 9 to meet you. I also take 10 as prescribed because again, I'm not looking for big speed down the big straight (and I have enough power in my car to make up for any goofs.)

I'll share my gearing strategy even though it won't in any way, shape, or form, help you. My car never sees anything lower than 3rd, which I downshift to going into 1. Coming out of 2 I'm in 4th, which is where it stays until turn 5 where I'm back in 3rd. While the car is settling between turns 8 and 9, I pop it into 4th gear and keep it there until I shift to 5th on the big straight. I only shift to 5th to cool the car off.

Hopefully I'll see you out there this season. Look for a dark red C5 Corvette that's always waiting to pass something. :-)

jas

forklift

Hi Jas,

Yes I have you on video tape screaming by me on the 2 to 3 straight. Well I guess the supercharged Z06 screams, you just flew by.

Thanks for the insight, your turn 3 info. is interesting and I will look for the bump there. As far as the straight goes, I have only hit 140 a few times, just to see what the car would do....that is redline in fourth. My Pagid Oranges pull me down very quickly, but usually (usually) back off at 130 as well. My 3rd gen RX-7 I took up there a few years ago did the same and I just wanted to see if the RS would make it.

That was a great day with perfect weather. It was my first Group 2, 7th DE and the 3rd in the RS. On the first run I was pretty nervous about running with the big boys, but felt "comfortable" by the 3rd run. On my first (red flagged from your friend, that sucks) and second run I got passed by everything, but that does NOT bother me in the least. I realize it is not a race and I am working up to my limits. I really felt guilty at first for slowing them down. With that being said, I spoke to quite a few people out there (including a few instructors) that say they get a competitve vibe out there. On my second run there was a yellow type R Integra on my butt the first few laps. Most everyone got by me but him, I pulled away in the straights, but he would catch me in the corners. I actually wanted to let him by, but my instructor that run kept on saying "go, go" and really did not want him to pass me. My better judgement said to let him pass and I did. After the run some guy came up to me and asked if that was my car. I said, "yes, are the type R?" He said yes and was calm and was complaining about the light blue Vette going so slow....then he said, "don't worry about it, I know it is difficult to let an inferior car pass you." ouch.

After that my instructor put a solo sticker on my car. It was very different going solo out there. I was still careful, but did drive harder. On the fourth run I was still solo and lapped that blue Vette and a s4. I need a wide angle lens though because it looks like I was driving 5 mph.

After reading everyones imput (thanks to all!), I think I need the most work in 3 and 10. I did spin in 9 the FATT before that and I learned never to replace your fronts and not your rears and never lift! In the past I have gotten away with a slight lift in power oversteer, but not that time. At the last FATT I had some oversteer in 9 (but new rear tires) and just corrected and added throttle and it was beautiful. I have been taking the whole track in third and fourth gear as I run out of gear if I take turn one in second, but will take Bill's advice and take 5 in second.

I am signed up for the March 9 FATT and will come over and say hi if you are there.

Thanks, Jim

P.S. I hope you guys don't take my enthusiasm for wrecklessness. My priority is SAFE, fast driving. I work up to what I am comfortable on that session and don't exceed that. If anything I was more cautious than a few instructors out there. I think that if I was overdriving my capabilities one of the insructors would have said something or not promoted me to G2? I will take everyone's advice and skip the trail braking. Thanks again for all the helpful hints and comments, I have much to learn and am trying to soak up as much as possible!

John Brown

I think I can speak for the Potomac DE program generally; however, as I am retired you should email the Potomac DE Registrar with questions about your specific situation.

The new policy is intended to require some instruction and/or experience in the basics prior to track time at the DE. One way to do this is by attending the High Performance Driving Clinic(s). HPDC are conducted by Potomac in the Spring and Zone 2 in the fall. Alternatively some prior track/driving experience can substitute.

My guess is that certainly 7 track days will qualify. Probably fewer also unless they were a thousand years ago.

In fact, the HPDC is not designed for people with significant amounts of track time. At some point, drivers with too much experience create at the HPDC exactly the situation the new policy tries to mitigate at DE.

jasonvp

I'm not sure what was up with that Z06 driver. I hate to disparage a fellow Vette driver, but he was talking some smack in the paddock during the morning. I was expecting to see him running away from me during the day, given how capable his car is, and (apparently) how capable he was. That didn't happen.

Cool, just take it easy. I didn't think it was possible to go faster around the track by going slower in the big straight. But as I scrubbed speed off in the 10-1 straight, my times started dropping.

Indeed. Fortunately he wasn't harmed at all (Vettes are damned solid cars,) and, to top it off, his insurance company totalled it for him. He was fortunate in both regards, but it does still suck to lose a car like that.

Yep. I'm as guilty as the next guy, and I won't deny it in the least. The Group 2 drivers are more competitive, even though we aren't supposed to be. You'll find that as long as you don't do anything stupid (like passing someone in a corner.. I've seen that one) the instructors generally don't mind a certain level of "friendly competition" going.

I seem to remember the blue Vette not moving very well. I guess not all of the Corvette drivers out there are as aggressive as I am. :-) My day went superbly, if I may. First session, I had a 993 Turbo keeping pace with me very well. He wasn't faster or slower, really, just sorta always in my mirror. I lifted and let him pass in the big straight because I wanted to see if he was doing something different; a chance to learn more. Well, he then drove into the pits. :-( Oh well.

Second session, that same 993 was lined up behind me in the pits and I figured we'd have more of the same. But, I launched out and, within a lap, he was nowhere to be seen. I'd left him sucking dust.

Third session was uneventful. Fourth I had some fun with a 95 RX7 that was driven very well. He was ahead of me, and using the slower cars to "peel me off" of him. Eventually, he ran out of cars, and I caught him and stayed with him for a lap or two. He finally got the hint and let me pass. Within another lap, he was long gone from my rear view.

I don't take it that way at all. As long as you're aware of what's going on 360 degrees around your vehicle, you won't have any problems. If you suspect you're a relatively slower vehicle out there, keep at least a half an eyeball on your mirror though, and make sure to wave the faster guys by. It's drivers that're so scared (or that're too arrogant) to look in their mirrors that cause the back-ups. I will deal with people like that by parking an inch off of their rear bumper so when they DO look in their mirror, all they see is big, red Vette. But, I'll give them a chance before I start crowding them in.

See ya out there.

jas

forklift

Hi John, I email Bob earlier today and hopefully will here something soon.

Jas, one question, who is you friend's insurance company? I have Allstate, but from what I understand they won't pay on DEs, so I am going to double check w/ State Farm and switch this week.

I am pretty good about my mirrors. I managed a moving co. a few years back and with a 48' trailer you have to constantly know who is around you at all times and I keep that habit on or off the track. As a matter of fact at that last FATT the guy waived my out and I looked in my mirror and the 993T was making a pass. I am glad I double checked my mirrors or that could have been very, very bad. Driving 18 wheelers also helped in the heel/tow department as they don't have synchros. You have to match the revs on up shifts and down shifts.

Wow, I didn't look closely at the Vette, but did not think it was totaled....

jasonvp

He uses State Farm. I'm not 100% sure they'll always cover DE's; I think he worded his accident to the agent over the phone very carefully. "I had a single-car accident on a private property in Summit Pt, West VA. No police report." Once he got the car to a local body shop here in northern VA, the insurance company took over.

It was doing OK until the body shop guys realized the frame had bent inwards on itself. The Vette has a backbone tunnel and it apparently had cracked, allowing the frame to bend into a V shape.

jas

Brian P

What insurance will and won't cover at DE's varies from state to state. So, it's quite possible that some people will be covered at an event and others won't be. You should really check your policy (or call your agent) to see if you would be covered.

Many times, if you live in a state that does not cover DE events, you might be able to purchase separate insurance for DE events.

BrandonH

JAS, just a clarification on your T3 technique: Basically I think you are saying you turn in early (after the dip) then tighten your hands again, when you reach the apex? I guess this works because the apex has some favorable camber plus as soon as you hit the hill you have all kinds of grip...

B

PS forklift: may you be forever "wreckless," never reckless...

jasonvp

Yep. I simplify the description as: taking turn 3 as two turns. First turn is right after the pit (bump) in the road. The second is just prior to the apex, where you're forced to tighten your steering angle up a little more.

jas