When to introduce rotating the car to a student?
03-30-2018, 12:54 PM
#46
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The next dimension, in each case, for sure!
Jabs, Matt and I (and you) with GPS, some measurements, a steering angle sensor and a good analysis program can certainly put a number to that most desirable state.
It’s cool taking something subjective like this and putting an objective number to the amplitude and time in that state. But it’s still dynamic. It changes.
But, it has to occur FIRST. I don’t know how many times people have explained to me when we are watching their video that they are “rotating” the car, WITHOUT any actual indication of having done so...
03-30-2018, 01:19 PM
#47
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[QUOTE=ProCoach;14906170]
Thomas Pank’s young son is driving, in the IGT Race last September. He’s been driving for a very short time. If you like his lap, you should see his dad’s!
I see nothing unusual (at least in driver performance terms) with this video. Just a nice tidy lap, well executed, with a little preoccupation with how to get around the car(s) in front.
I like his manipulation of the car through and off Turn 5 very much. THAT is the proper balance and goal for all.
That is surprising to me that the young Fella driving is not a seasoned racer.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MSR Racer
Learning to explore the ‘slip angle’ is what it is about I think. Probably too premature at instructor-student level.
I’ve had green students and novice racers demonstrate that to me competently their maiden outing... without being shown or explaining that as a goal.
Yes, some people just “have it.” But, we can all aspire!
Lee Carpentier’s Skid Pad training is a good first step.
OK, this is a way out question, in a scenario, when a student has a "Teachable Moment", be it good or bad, and the event is at a Track with a skid pad, has it or can it happen for an instructor to suggest forgoing a track session and bring the student to the skid pad?
I understand car control clinics are available in the Northeast, but for very little time vs. cost, four - five hours for a whole group to share the skid pads and they are equal or greater in price than an HPDE full day
I see nothing unusual (at least in driver performance terms) with this video. Just a nice tidy lap, well executed, with a little preoccupation with how to get around the car(s) in front.
I like his manipulation of the car through and off Turn 5 very much. THAT is the proper balance and goal for all.
That is surprising to me that the young Fella driving is not a seasoned racer.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MSR Racer
Learning to explore the ‘slip angle’ is what it is about I think. Probably too premature at instructor-student level.
I’ve had green students and novice racers demonstrate that to me competently their maiden outing... without being shown or explaining that as a goal.
Yes, some people just “have it.” But, we can all aspire!
Lee Carpentier’s Skid Pad training is a good first step.
OK, this is a way out question, in a scenario, when a student has a "Teachable Moment", be it good or bad, and the event is at a Track with a skid pad, has it or can it happen for an instructor to suggest forgoing a track session and bring the student to the skid pad?
I understand car control clinics are available in the Northeast, but for very little time vs. cost, four - five hours for a whole group to share the skid pads and they are equal or greater in price than an HPDE full day
03-30-2018, 01:32 PM
#49
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NCR-PCA will be having Lee Carpentier and his skid pad cars at our Lime Rock event during our DE event June 25-26. Details not worked out yet, but Lee has committed and the track has given a green light. I will post up more info when we nail it down.
03-30-2018, 01:57 PM
#50
I'm in....
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Yes, it's usually in hairpins or other 90+ degre corners where students will first get there. The toe at the glen, big bend at LRP etc. but I think the place I've seen the light bulb go off the most is in Oak tree at VIR. If you don't get the car to rotate, you aren't getting through there very fast and trying to get through faster is how they usually get there. I've also had a couple spin there when they weren't quite ready for the speed and rotation that they achieved and didn't get to the gas soon enough to put weight on the back and stop the rotation. That's probably the tougher skill to learn because you have to have confidence that it really works and that takes repetition.
03-30-2018, 02:03 PM
#51
Drifting
OK so lets get a little more technical as long as we're on the topic. To solidify the whole thing in my feeble brain, a couple of questions:
I'm assuming we're taking about this concept: http://racingcardynamics.com/racing-...lateral-force/
So when I'm in a turn with my steering wheel fixed, if I give the car gas (throttle steer) what exactly happens?
I "feel" the back of the car push more toward the outside of the turn. But how does this help me tighten the turn if the tires don't break free and slip sideways?
And I'm assuming trail braking is the other half of the equation?
Is there also changed turn dynamics in exactly the opposite direction as increased throttle with increased brake pressure?
I'm really enjoying this discussion BTW.
I'm assuming we're taking about this concept: http://racingcardynamics.com/racing-...lateral-force/
So when I'm in a turn with my steering wheel fixed, if I give the car gas (throttle steer) what exactly happens?
I "feel" the back of the car push more toward the outside of the turn. But how does this help me tighten the turn if the tires don't break free and slip sideways?
And I'm assuming trail braking is the other half of the equation?
Is there also changed turn dynamics in exactly the opposite direction as increased throttle with increased brake pressure?
I'm really enjoying this discussion BTW.
03-30-2018, 03:53 PM
#53
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Thread Starter
Yes, it's usually in hairpins or other 90+ degre corners where students will first get there. The toe at the glen, big bend at LRP etc. but I think the place I've seen the light bulb go off the most is in Oak tree at VIR. If you don't get the car to rotate, you aren't getting through there very fast and trying to get through faster is how they usually get there. I've also had a couple spin there when they weren't quite ready for the speed and rotation that they achieved and didn't get to the gas soon enough to put weight on the back and stop the rotation. That's probably the tougher skill to learn because you have to have confidence that it really works and that takes repetition.
03-30-2018, 04:26 PM
#54
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03-30-2018, 06:10 PM
#55
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Y... but I think the place I've seen the light bulb go off the most is in Oak tree at VIR. If you don't get the car to rotate, you aren't getting through there very fast and trying to get through faster is how they usually get there. I've also had a couple spin there when they weren't quite ready for the speed and rotation that they achieved and didn't get to the gas soon enough to put weight on the back and stop the rotation...
In reading this thread I was thinking of VIR Turns 1 and Oak Tree. The Turn 1 wide sweeper is about the only place I notice a significant amount of understeer, and have done throttle steering through there. In this turn seems like the distance of trail braking and on-the-throttle are roughly about the same for me.
At oak tree, I am trail braking like crazy through the turn before Oak Tree and on top of the plateau, and down shifting into 2nd just before making the turn and turning on the power. The car is rotating, but I admit I do not think I have consciously felt something akin to the car pushing in turn 1, or rotating directly due to my inputs. Is the trail braking helping me rotate?
I don't recall specifically talking about rotating with any of my instructors (but they do tell me I have a great heel-toe technique
03-30-2018, 06:14 PM
#57
Out of curiosity how often do driver's never consciously "get it" or think about rotation but just do it unknowingly? So often you hear "how do I..." and the answer is "get a coach." I suspect a good number of drivers have learned to drive following other faster friends in the same car. He did it so I should be able to do it too. I suspect one could learn much faster following a faster guy than being instructed to a solo epiphany. What do you think?
03-30-2018, 06:46 PM
#58
The car I have 95% of my track time in is a Cayman (S, now GT4). I've driven some other models at Barber, but only for a few days. I'm sure some would tell me the Cayman is a horrible car to begin tracking with because it handles so well and is balanced. From an intermediate (white) perspective, I would say the GT4 turns when I want it to - it doesn't seem hard to get it to turn. I'm sure one reason is "I'm not going fast enough" which is probably true. My best lap at VIR full is 2:11. Is experiencing the "my car won't rotate" feeling the difference between 2:11 and, say, 2:05?
In reading this thread I was thinking of VIR Turns 1 and Oak Tree. The Turn 1 wide sweeper is about the only place I notice a significant amount of understeer, and have done throttle steering through there. In this turn seems like the distance of trail braking and on-the-throttle are roughly about the same for me.
At oak tree, I am trail braking like crazy through the turn before Oak Tree and on top of the plateau, and down shifting into 2nd just before making the turn and turning on the power. The car is rotating, but I admit I do not think I have consciously felt something akin to the car pushing in turn 1, or rotating directly due to my inputs. Is the trail braking helping me rotate?
I don't recall specifically talking about rotating with any of my instructors (but they do tell me I have a great heel-toe technique
In reading this thread I was thinking of VIR Turns 1 and Oak Tree. The Turn 1 wide sweeper is about the only place I notice a significant amount of understeer, and have done throttle steering through there. In this turn seems like the distance of trail braking and on-the-throttle are roughly about the same for me.
At oak tree, I am trail braking like crazy through the turn before Oak Tree and on top of the plateau, and down shifting into 2nd just before making the turn and turning on the power. The car is rotating, but I admit I do not think I have consciously felt something akin to the car pushing in turn 1, or rotating directly due to my inputs. Is the trail braking helping me rotate?
I don't recall specifically talking about rotating with any of my instructors (but they do tell me I have a great heel-toe technique
Oak Tree is Turn 11 and Turn 12. I don't personally worry too much about rotating the car through 11. 12 is really the turn where I want to get the car pointed in the right direction. I am told that you can trail brake all the way from 11 through turn in for 12, but I must brake too hard/early for 11 so I usually have to stab the gas. However, to induce rotation at 12, I do a quick stab of the brakes and load up front end and rear end comes around nicely.
FWIW, the difference between 2:11 and 2:05 is pretty much entirely through the climbing esses. Most modern cars on decent tires should be able to stay flat through climbing eases with a tap of the brakes at southbend.
Getting the car properly rotated at 12 and gaining some extra exit speed is worth some time. Similarly, getting good exit out of hog pen and 5A will shave time.
03-30-2018, 06:58 PM
#59
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Trail braking in general can help you rotate. Sometimes just a lift on throttle will be sufficient.
Oak Tree is Turn 11 and Turn 12. I don't personally worry too much about rotating the car through 11. 12 is really the turn where I want to get the car pointed in the right direction. I am told that you can trail brake all the way from 11 through turn in for 12, but I must brake too hard/early for 11 so I usually have to stab the gas. However, to induce rotation at 12, I do a quick stab of the brakes and load up front end and rear end comes around nicely.
FWIW, the difference between 2:11 and 2:05 is pretty much entirely through the climbing esses. Most modern cars on decent tires should be able to stay flat through climbing eases with a tap of the brakes at southbend.
Getting the car properly rotated at 12 and gaining some extra exit speed is worth some time. Similarly, getting good exit out of hog pen and 5A will shave time.
Oak Tree is Turn 11 and Turn 12. I don't personally worry too much about rotating the car through 11. 12 is really the turn where I want to get the car pointed in the right direction. I am told that you can trail brake all the way from 11 through turn in for 12, but I must brake too hard/early for 11 so I usually have to stab the gas. However, to induce rotation at 12, I do a quick stab of the brakes and load up front end and rear end comes around nicely.
FWIW, the difference between 2:11 and 2:05 is pretty much entirely through the climbing esses. Most modern cars on decent tires should be able to stay flat through climbing eases with a tap of the brakes at southbend.
Getting the car properly rotated at 12 and gaining some extra exit speed is worth some time. Similarly, getting good exit out of hog pen and 5A will shave time.
The goal for Turn 11 is to roll speed so quickly that it’s a struggle to slow the car for T12. If you have to brake less to carry more speed, do it, but you better touch the inside curb (target vMin 68-75 mph) and mind car placement because that is the area that has the least runoff, if you screw up.
Sorry, but total BS on the Climbing Esses being a majority of the six-second difference in lap times.
Most cars are only in the Uphill Esses (from the flat entry to the brake point) for less than seven seconds and at a high rate of speed. And few are flat, period.
Most are in T1 for more than THIRTEEN seconds and about the same amount from braking for T11 to exit of Oak Tree. Which area is going to be easier to shave time from? Which area can just a few more mph raise the average MORE?
Exit of 5A and Hog Pen are critical, as you say. Agree 100% with that.
03-30-2018, 07:07 PM
#60
Oak Tree is Turn 12. Your carrying of the brake into T12 to “load up the front and the rear comes around nicely” is the goal. The turning moment MUST be as quick as possible for the turn leading onto the straight.
The goal for Turn 11 is to roll speed so quickly that it’s a struggle to slow the car for T12. If you have to brake less to carry more speed, do it, but you better touch the inside curb (target vMin 68-75 mph) and mind car placement because that is the area that has the least runoff, if you screw up.
Sorry, but total BS on the Climbing Esses being a majority of the six-second difference in lap times.
Most cars are only in the Uphill Esses (from the flat entry to the brake point) for less than seven seconds and at a high rate of speed. And few are flat, period.
Most are in T1 for more than THIRTEEN seconds and about the same amount from braking for T11 to exit of Oak Tree. Which area is going to be easier to shave time from? Which area can just a few more mph raise the average MORE?
Exit of 5A and Hog Pen are critical, as you say. Agree 100% with that.
Last edited by Thundermoose; 03-30-2018 at 07:39 PM.