When to introduce rotating the car to a student?
03-29-2018, 06:23 PM
#31
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Jabs
In the video I linked to in opening post, the unknown subject driving, watching through his windshield, it looks like very smooth rotating in turn 9, is that what it looks like done properly?
You can see the car in front sashay coming out of the turn. It doesn't look as if the car in front executed the turn as well.
Do you have a video of turn 9?
In the video I linked to in opening post, the unknown subject driving, watching through his windshield, it looks like very smooth rotating in turn 9, is that what it looks like done properly?
You can see the car in front sashay coming out of the turn. It doesn't look as if the car in front executed the turn as well.
Do you have a video of turn 9?
I do have video of Turn 9 but it's an example of what NOT to do. I rotated too much at track out (throttle steering) and had to countersteer towards the beginning on the wall at track out - code brown! When done right you really can't see the rotation, at least I can't.
Pro Coach may be able to show this in data - I would be very interested to learn if that's possible.
03-29-2018, 09:15 PM
#34
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Kibort's answer would be:
To start trail braking, use 10 year old tires or even older. Then approach the corner and slow down by not even braking, but by downshifting into second. Then calculate the torque as you accelerate through the apex while maximizing your horsepower. When you get to track out, rub your fingers through your hair even with your helmet on and yell ye ha! Job well done.
To start trail braking, use 10 year old tires or even older. Then approach the corner and slow down by not even braking, but by downshifting into second. Then calculate the torque as you accelerate through the apex while maximizing your horsepower. When you get to track out, rub your fingers through your hair even with your helmet on and yell ye ha! Job well done.
03-29-2018, 09:35 PM
#35
I'm in....
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Most get there by accident when pushing breaking / downshifting later. Often their initial reaction is to countersteer but some just get it. Either way, it's a teachable moment. It's fairly rare for a green student but not really for the blue group in my experience.
03-30-2018, 12:30 AM
#36
...when your student is comfortable deviating from the traditional/school line and not only understands the concept of ‘load’/weight transfer but also has sufficient car control skill to FEEL the car’s lateral shifts in a corner.
(1) the traditional line taught at DEs, emphasizes braking in a straight line to maximize the turning radius by hitting the geometric apex. Car rotation is an advanced skill associated with taking a faster line through a corner using a combination of braking later INTO a turn, trail braking and throttle steering
(2) understanding load/weight transfer is key to maintaining the car’s balance through corners (very important when learning throttle steering in a corner)
(3) the ability to feel the car’s lateral shift is acquired and is hard to teach. It has to be felt and experienced (usually one has to experience mild oversteer in order to begin to develop the feel for how to control it)
Until your student understands all three, attempting to teach him/her, car rotation may only confuse them, or worse, lead to errors.
(1) the traditional line taught at DEs, emphasizes braking in a straight line to maximize the turning radius by hitting the geometric apex. Car rotation is an advanced skill associated with taking a faster line through a corner using a combination of braking later INTO a turn, trail braking and throttle steering
(2) understanding load/weight transfer is key to maintaining the car’s balance through corners (very important when learning throttle steering in a corner)
(3) the ability to feel the car’s lateral shift is acquired and is hard to teach. It has to be felt and experienced (usually one has to experience mild oversteer in order to begin to develop the feel for how to control it)
Until your student understands all three, attempting to teach him/her, car rotation may only confuse them, or worse, lead to errors.
03-30-2018, 08:18 AM
#37
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Thomas Pank’s young son is driving, in the IGT Race last September. He’s been driving for a very short time. If you like his lap, you should see his dad’s!
I see nothing unusual (at least in driver performance terms) with this video. Just a nice tidy lap, well executed, with a little preoccupation with how to get around the car(s) in front.
I like his manipulation of the car through and off Turn 5 very much. THAT is the proper balance and goal for all.
The problem with “rotation,” as taught by most DE instructors, is that it’s often treated as a “singular event” rather than an ongoing, dynamic and desirable way to conduct the car, as often and as long duration as possible. Because it’s part of optimal use of the tire.
The reason why people can “see” rotation in the car is because the variation between tracking true and big rotation is so big, and so evident.
In this video, that variation is MUCH finer, with smaller, more frequent manipulations (NOT corrections, that means the initiation was TOO big) to SUSTAIN the optimal slip angle.
Fantastic topic! Great opportunity for learning here.
Yes.
Agreed, 100%! Well illustrated and matches my experience exactly.
Well said.
I see nothing unusual (at least in driver performance terms) with this video. Just a nice tidy lap, well executed, with a little preoccupation with how to get around the car(s) in front.
I like his manipulation of the car through and off Turn 5 very much. THAT is the proper balance and goal for all.
The problem with “rotation,” as taught by most DE instructors, is that it’s often treated as a “singular event” rather than an ongoing, dynamic and desirable way to conduct the car, as often and as long duration as possible. Because it’s part of optimal use of the tire.
The reason why people can “see” rotation in the car is because the variation between tracking true and big rotation is so big, and so evident.
In this video, that variation is MUCH finer, with smaller, more frequent manipulations (NOT corrections, that means the initiation was TOO big) to SUSTAIN the optimal slip angle.
Fantastic topic! Great opportunity for learning here.
Absolutely. There is no substitute for seat time with an instructor, regardless of which one of you is driving.
At VIR a couple weeks ago, we were working a lot on throttle steering and trail braking.
I was driving as the coach was telling me "back on the gas lightly", "stay on the brake as you enter this corner", "rotate the back of the car out with light throttle", etc.
There is no substitute for that kind of in car coaching.
I'm learning so much about weight transfer and the actual physics involved with weight transfer from front to back and side to side.
Using the brakes to set the car, using the throttle to push the back end out, staying on the brakes rotate the car into a corner, etc.
There is no substitute for that kind of in car coaching.
So yes, it make sense to first have a coach/instructor take you out either in your car or theirs and demo it to you so you can get a feel for it.
At VIR a couple weeks ago, we were working a lot on throttle steering and trail braking.
I was driving as the coach was telling me "back on the gas lightly", "stay on the brake as you enter this corner", "rotate the back of the car out with light throttle", etc.
There is no substitute for that kind of in car coaching.
I'm learning so much about weight transfer and the actual physics involved with weight transfer from front to back and side to side.
Using the brakes to set the car, using the throttle to push the back end out, staying on the brakes rotate the car into a corner, etc.
There is no substitute for that kind of in car coaching.
So yes, it make sense to first have a coach/instructor take you out either in your car or theirs and demo it to you so you can get a feel for it.
I think it's highly student and car dependent. Hopefully I don't get burned at the stake, but I've worked with a green student on trail braking into the Toe at Watkins Glen because his car wouldn't turn there. I've ridden with White drivers that were just on the edge of being able to really make the car do what they want. It really comes down to the student, their ability to feel the car, and what they want to get out of their driving experience.
My 2 cents.
I would not encourage a DE Instructor to "bring in rotation" to a student. Instead, I would go through a purposeful practice routine that builds skills and experience in a DE. This practice will predictably and naturally induce controlled rotation as demanded by the driver. This approach can work for every car (front engine, rear engine, etc...) and track condition (dry, wet, etc...) without simply learning to "rotate".
I would start this learning process as soon as a student is no longer "driving the track" and is instead driving the car - they aren't lost, are safe in traffic, know the flags, corner workers, etc...
Here's how I help students skill up to natural and controlled rotation (easier to do in the wet):
1.) First you have to get the student looking way far ahead - start on slow corners and ignore the typical tunnel vision as you enter the braking zone - while braking gauge corner entry speed to the apex by using your eyes - fill the brain with visual inputs - over practice this!
2.) Get used to throttle steering on long "sweeping" turns - feel the car understeer as weight is shifted rearward and turn in as weight is shifted forward - do this through throttle manipulation only (no additional steering input) - do this over and over again. Most students pick this up very quickly and naturally as they start carrying more speed and using up available grip mid corner while on maintenance throttle.
3.) Get used to "steering with the brake pedal" through trail braking. On relatively safe corners with good visibility and run off - start to introduce very simple trail braking (most do this naturally through the vision practice in step 1). Work up to holding smooth and decreasing brake pressure to the apex - ask the student to describe what he/she feels under braking as the car approaches the apex. Try to force the student to make it impossible for you to tell when he/she comes off the brake - make it smooth, over and over again.
If an instructor focuses on some simple skills - a student who wants to learn will begin to "rotate" the car at will around the track. But the instructor never teaches "rotation"...only vision and weight transfer. BTW - I do this routine at least one day myself - over and over again for each DE weekend.
I would not encourage a DE Instructor to "bring in rotation" to a student. Instead, I would go through a purposeful practice routine that builds skills and experience in a DE. This practice will predictably and naturally induce controlled rotation as demanded by the driver. This approach can work for every car (front engine, rear engine, etc...) and track condition (dry, wet, etc...) without simply learning to "rotate".
I would start this learning process as soon as a student is no longer "driving the track" and is instead driving the car - they aren't lost, are safe in traffic, know the flags, corner workers, etc...
Here's how I help students skill up to natural and controlled rotation (easier to do in the wet):
1.) First you have to get the student looking way far ahead - start on slow corners and ignore the typical tunnel vision as you enter the braking zone - while braking gauge corner entry speed to the apex by using your eyes - fill the brain with visual inputs - over practice this!
2.) Get used to throttle steering on long "sweeping" turns - feel the car understeer as weight is shifted rearward and turn in as weight is shifted forward - do this through throttle manipulation only (no additional steering input) - do this over and over again. Most students pick this up very quickly and naturally as they start carrying more speed and using up available grip mid corner while on maintenance throttle.
3.) Get used to "steering with the brake pedal" through trail braking. On relatively safe corners with good visibility and run off - start to introduce very simple trail braking (most do this naturally through the vision practice in step 1). Work up to holding smooth and decreasing brake pressure to the apex - ask the student to describe what he/she feels under braking as the car approaches the apex. Try to force the student to make it impossible for you to tell when he/she comes off the brake - make it smooth, over and over again.
If an instructor focuses on some simple skills - a student who wants to learn will begin to "rotate" the car at will around the track. But the instructor never teaches "rotation"...only vision and weight transfer. BTW - I do this routine at least one day myself - over and over again for each DE weekend.
Last edited by ProCoach; 03-30-2018 at 08:39 AM.
03-30-2018, 08:52 AM
#39
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Yes, some people just “have it.” But, we can all aspire!
Lee Carpentier’s Skid Pad training is a good first step.
03-30-2018, 10:02 AM
#40
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ProCoach:
I see. I dont' mean to "re-ignite" this thread but don't you think that the idea of "throttle steering" is misleading because if you get on throttle mid-corner and lift to get the nosed turned around, you probably got on gas too early or your entry speed was too slow.
Happy Easter!
I see. I dont' mean to "re-ignite" this thread but don't you think that the idea of "throttle steering" is misleading because if you get on throttle mid-corner and lift to get the nosed turned around, you probably got on gas too early or your entry speed was too slow.
Happy Easter!
03-30-2018, 10:51 AM
#41
I can't say I use hard rules as to when to introduce the student to this concept or that. To me, the answer, as the instructor is "when I feel comfortable". I've had intermediate students that caused me to think "how in the hell did you get into this run group?". I've had greens who I've introduced trail braking, throttle steering, and heel-toe on their first weekend. It is a huge case of YMMV. I don't believe in holding back someone solely because they are green. As a green instructor, I start out in hand holding mode but that progresses to coaching mode at a pace solely dependent on the student.
Also why the confusion on 2D vs 3D line? It's simple, the 3D line includes air time - if you aren't getting all four wheels off the ground you aren't going fast enough.
-Mike
Also why the confusion on 2D vs 3D line? It's simple, the 3D line includes air time - if you aren't getting all four wheels off the ground you aren't going fast enough.
-Mike
03-30-2018, 11:22 AM
#42
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I can't say I use hard rules as to when to introduce the student to this concept or that. To me, the answer, as the instructor is "when I feel comfortable". I've had intermediate students that caused me to think "how in the hell did you get into this run group?". I've had greens who I've introduced trail braking, throttle steering, and heel-toe on their first weekend. It is a huge case of YMMV. I don't believe in holding back someone solely because they are green. As a green instructor, I start out in hand holding mode but that progresses to coaching mode at a pace solely dependent on the student.
Also why the confusion on 2D vs 3D line? It's simple, the 3D line includes air time - if you aren't getting all four wheels off the ground you aren't going fast enough.
-Mike
Also why the confusion on 2D vs 3D line? It's simple, the 3D line includes air time - if you aren't getting all four wheels off the ground you aren't going fast enough.
-Mike
Otherwise agree with all of this.
03-30-2018, 12:13 PM
#43
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If a student gets a little oversteer I always mention the concept of rotation.
03-30-2018, 12:23 PM
#44
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ProCoach:
I see. I dont' mean to "re-ignite" this thread but don't you think that the idea of "throttle steering" is misleading because if you get on throttle mid-corner and lift to get the nose to "tuck in," you probably got on gas too early or your entry speed was too slow.
Happy Easter!
I see. I dont' mean to "re-ignite" this thread but don't you think that the idea of "throttle steering" is misleading because if you get on throttle mid-corner and lift to get the nose to "tuck in," you probably got on gas too early or your entry speed was too slow.
Happy Easter!
Yes, I think the whole idea of "less than optimal" rotation is when it's used AS A FIX, not proactively.
The scenario you state is definitely the case, because instead of maintaining the speed, "throttle steering" is used to recover the speed.
The time has ALREADY been lost, going in...
This is why not all rotation scenarios are optimal, and why most driver's first experience with it is because of a mistake...
The "2D" is just proper lateral and logitudinal position for every foot traveled through a lap. THAT'S what everyone is working on, and the challenge is really BEYOND that, as referenced by the OP.
The "3D" includes yaw, or slip. THAT'S what we should all aspire to.
Time to bug out for me...
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03-30-2018, 12:31 PM
#45
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I thought 3D is for when someone says "Hey, that guy is really flying." Similar to, but not the same as LuigiVampa said.