Which is worse for grip? Freezing temps or rain?
03-17-2018, 09:17 PM
#16
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"Cold tires" is a relative term. I've seen people go off on their first lap on warm days as well.
03-18-2018, 03:51 AM
#17
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03-18-2018, 08:42 AM
#18
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I've had cold as bad as wet... but yeah, you can work your way out of it; wet, not as much...
I don't always go out in the wet... but when I do, it's usually on slicks...
I don't always go out in the wet... but when I do, it's usually on slicks...
03-18-2018, 06:13 PM
#19
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Rain and freezing both suck. From your friendly open cockpit guy.
03-18-2018, 06:25 PM
#20
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The worst part of rain is when it’s dry and starts to rain.
But to compare the two, I’d have to know what tires were on the car - slicks, rain, or street tires? I’d take cold slicks over slicks in the rain, but I would also take rain tires in the rain over cold slicks in the dry.
But to compare the two, I’d have to know what tires were on the car - slicks, rain, or street tires? I’d take cold slicks over slicks in the rain, but I would also take rain tires in the rain over cold slicks in the dry.
03-18-2018, 06:56 PM
#21
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The worst part of rain is when it’s dry and starts to rain.
But to compare the two, I’d have to know what tires were on the car - slicks, rain, or street tires? I’d take cold slicks over slicks in the rain, but I would also take rain tires in the rain over cold slicks in the dry.
But to compare the two, I’d have to know what tires were on the car - slicks, rain, or street tires? I’d take cold slicks over slicks in the rain, but I would also take rain tires in the rain over cold slicks in the dry.
I was in a race at Sebring a couple of years back which started dry and then came the rain. I was on slicks and doing just fine with the grip and then someone hit the wall and we did three laps under yellow. After that there was no grip in the tires and very hard to build the heat back into them.
I'll take dry into wet any day of the week.
03-18-2018, 09:11 PM
#22
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What?! Dry into rain is much more preferable than just rain. When you start in the dry the tires have temp, thus they have more grip, thus it is easier to keep the temp up. It is much harder to build temp when you start in the rain.
I was in a race at Sebring a couple of years back which started dry and then came the rain. I was on slicks and doing just fine with the grip and then someone hit the wall and we did three laps under yellow. After that there was no grip in the tires and very hard to build the heat back into them.
I'll take dry into wet any day of the week.
I was in a race at Sebring a couple of years back which started dry and then came the rain. I was on slicks and doing just fine with the grip and then someone hit the wall and we did three laps under yellow. After that there was no grip in the tires and very hard to build the heat back into them.
I'll take dry into wet any day of the week.
03-19-2018, 08:36 AM
#23
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Coochas - if you drive fast enough, you won't get wet!
Actually, my lower legs get wet, somehow... someday I'll figure that one out...
03-19-2018, 09:00 AM
#24
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Tires have an envelope of conditions they are designed to perform in. One of the most difficult engineering problem that exists because the variables are all constantly varying in nearly infinite ways and combinations.
Extreme cold, below 45 degrees since we're talking DE driving is far greater risk than rain. Put the two together it is virtual disaster- if you're on "performance" tires as most cars at DEs are.
Went to a DE event early one spring- took the Audi, on street all season tires. Saturday afternoon, 69 degrees and rain car was sliding all around. Sunday morning wet track and 49 degrees and I was hooked up. At the time was doing work with the engineering team at both Bridgestone and Goodyear. Engineers at both organizations proceeded to give an education. The all seasons I was on had a performance envelope bettered suites to the colder temps ( hence part of all season rating).
Short example that tires are built in numerous types to addresses a wide range of purposes.
If you're taking you car on track in conditions not suited for the purpose, you are taking on more risk and should make adjustments to how you use them.
As part of a pro race team, I get to watch the telemetry coming from the car. It takes 2-3 in ideal conditions for tires to come up to temp. Sometimes if it's really cold, sometimes they never fully come up to temp.
Cold and rain on track is like a hockey rink. Drive accordingly
Extreme cold, below 45 degrees since we're talking DE driving is far greater risk than rain. Put the two together it is virtual disaster- if you're on "performance" tires as most cars at DEs are.
Went to a DE event early one spring- took the Audi, on street all season tires. Saturday afternoon, 69 degrees and rain car was sliding all around. Sunday morning wet track and 49 degrees and I was hooked up. At the time was doing work with the engineering team at both Bridgestone and Goodyear. Engineers at both organizations proceeded to give an education. The all seasons I was on had a performance envelope bettered suites to the colder temps ( hence part of all season rating).
Short example that tires are built in numerous types to addresses a wide range of purposes.
If you're taking you car on track in conditions not suited for the purpose, you are taking on more risk and should make adjustments to how you use them.
As part of a pro race team, I get to watch the telemetry coming from the car. It takes 2-3 in ideal conditions for tires to come up to temp. Sometimes if it's really cold, sometimes they never fully come up to temp.
Cold and rain on track is like a hockey rink. Drive accordingly
03-19-2018, 09:30 AM
#25
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Tires have an envelope of conditions they are designed to perform in.
One of the most difficult engineering problem that exists because the variables are all constantly varying in nearly infinite ways and combinations.
Short example that tires are built in numerous types to addresses a wide range of purposes.
If you're taking you car on track in conditions not suited for the purpose, you are taking on more risk and should make adjustments to how you use them.
Drive accordingly
One of the most difficult engineering problem that exists because the variables are all constantly varying in nearly infinite ways and combinations.
Short example that tires are built in numerous types to addresses a wide range of purposes.
If you're taking you car on track in conditions not suited for the purpose, you are taking on more risk and should make adjustments to how you use them.
Drive accordingly
Until a driver is able to catalog very accurately the characteristics of a tire through the warm up phase, it’s best to leave MORE margin.
But, it is important to allow the car to slide in which a way (even just tiny moments) to generate more heat, more quickly.
I’ve worked with countless professionals and talented amateurs in both racing and testing (DE/track day) environments who build a whole program AROUND doing just this (calibrating their butt to the available grip, through the warmup phase, which is CONSTANTLY changing).
It’s just good practice...
03-19-2018, 02:42 PM
#26
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As part of a pro race team, I get to watch the telemetry coming from the car. It takes 2-3 in ideal conditions for tires to come up to temp. Sometimes if it's really cold, sometimes they never fully come up to temp.
Cold and rain on track is like a hockey rink. Drive accordingly
I agree with Peter - the driver can really influence how long it takes and most drive far understand the capabilities of the tire.
03-19-2018, 05:17 PM
#27
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The worst part of rain is when it’s dry and starts to rain.
But to compare the two, I’d have to know what tires were on the car - slicks, rain, or street tires? I’d take cold slicks over slicks in the rain, but I would also take rain tires in the rain over cold slicks in the dry.
But to compare the two, I’d have to know what tires were on the car - slicks, rain, or street tires? I’d take cold slicks over slicks in the rain, but I would also take rain tires in the rain over cold slicks in the dry.
for example . i was in a very hard rain race at aguna. the RSR with rains could run a 1:46 (Sofro in his wcgt GMG 911, and the Pat Long RSR in the day). the rest of us on slicks caught in the rain , were running in the low 1:50s. Now, the question , is there any slick that could not run that time? answer........no. i dont care how cold it was.
I think you need to post some time of a known quantity, that has run on cold slicks and show us a faster time in the rain. hint: not going to happen. the slicks warm up at least to be decent in a lap... and MUCH stronger (grippier) than any rain tire in the rain, after a few laps, regardless of temps
03-19-2018, 05:29 PM
#28
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But like you said, in general, doesn’t apply
03-20-2018, 11:46 AM
#29
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yes, when you go from dry to a rain condition, you have to constantly be testing grip and watching for areas of the track that might be slicker than others. most racers tend to start driving off-line to avoid the "oil on the track mixed with water" phenom. its real simple. you just have to pull the speeds back and constantly be testing grip.
Here is a clip from the GTGP race back in 2010 where we had started out with a light drizzle running on slicks and it was raining pretty hard for the last few laps. (go to 10:40 on the video.) one of the things that helps , is to keep the car in a lower gear (just the opposite of most drivers intuition) because most of your control is under braking and decel... the engine braking gives MUCH more control. at the end , you can see the RSR on rain tires , and how much more control that gives you . dry laps were 1:35, rain laps were 1:52....... the rain tired RSR was 1:46 in the rain and 1:30s in the dry.