People who overstate their driving ability. The reality of correcting oversteer.
02-03-2018, 09:23 PM
#46
Originally Posted by sugarwood
What is a tank slapper?
Is that when the car spins around?
This happens b/c the driver did what wrong?
Not counter steer at all?
Or not reverse the counter steer once the car started turning the other way pendulum ?
Is that when the car spins around?
This happens b/c the driver did what wrong?
Not counter steer at all?
Or not reverse the counter steer once the car started turning the other way pendulum ?
02-03-2018, 11:28 PM
#47
Rennlist Member
All true. THAT is why skid-pad training is the first thing the proven, professional schools incorporate into their training. They start practicing correction-pause-recovery of an oversteer condition at 25-35 mph, then higher, if the skid pad is larger. UNTIL IT'S SECOND NATURE.
The "don't lift" mantra is so much macho BS. It just means that ninety percent of the time, you'll hit whatever you were going to hit,HARDER. The other ten percent is pure-t luck.
The "don't lift" mantra is so much macho BS. It just means that ninety percent of the time, you'll hit whatever you were going to hit,HARDER. The other ten percent is pure-t luck.
A tank-slapper is when the initial slide turns into over-corrections that progressively wage the tail more and more, until the cars spins, usually. But sometimes, can be gathered up, too.
It does happen when the initial pause and correction (often referred to as counter-steering) timing is NOT correct.
Yes, a correction is required.
If you RECOVER (referred to by you as a "reverse the counter-steer") AFTER the correction with the incorrect timing, and/or DON'T GET OUT OF THE GAS as it's coming back into line, you spin the other way. Like a pendulum.
It does happen when the initial pause and correction (often referred to as counter-steering) timing is NOT correct.
Yes, a correction is required.
If you RECOVER (referred to by you as a "reverse the counter-steer") AFTER the correction with the incorrect timing, and/or DON'T GET OUT OF THE GAS as it's coming back into line, you spin the other way. Like a pendulum.
i have never really seen snap oversteer, but i have seen "snap" correction. usually when (for example) when you go intto a banked section of track, in an oversteer conditino and then as you enter the turn, it regains grip and surprises the driver who has input the proper amount for a non cambered turn. the results can be an directional change taking the car off track.
Let's face it, basically no one goes to rally school, so it's little more than a theoretical explanation.
People aren't going to rally school, nor are they practicing correcting oversteer at 70mph at DE days.
Most people don't get to "practice" snap oversteer but a few times in their lives. (often, moments before a crash)
I just find it absurd for guys to think they are experts on something they've literally done once or twice in their entire lives.
The end result is guys just parroting what they've read (magazine racers)
Don't lift! Counter steer! etc. But, they've really only done it once or twice themselves on a track.
People aren't going to rally school, nor are they practicing correcting oversteer at 70mph at DE days.
Most people don't get to "practice" snap oversteer but a few times in their lives. (often, moments before a crash)
I just find it absurd for guys to think they are experts on something they've literally done once or twice in their entire lives.
The end result is guys just parroting what they've read (magazine racers)
Don't lift! Counter steer! etc. But, they've really only done it once or twice themselves on a track.
also, often not mentioned , is track surface angles. the more you experiment and understand and learn how the car will react in may different conditions, the better you get at the skill
This^
I was taught this in race school. Having learned what cars are likely to do as they loose grip and how to take advantage of the situation.
Most that slide out with oversteer will snap back and cross the track backwards in the other direction. Witness all the skid marks out of turn 10 at Mosport that lead directly into the pit wall. Ie: Right handed turn then crashing to the right side of the track after a spin.
That instant when the car regains traction and the ‘flick of counter correction’ is crucial. That’s a tough situation to replicate safely and rarely practicable.
:43 and 1:45 are two good examples of just not correcting enough with input. you rotate around and hit the way in the rear. this is not a "snap" this is just not correcting soon or without enough input . totally driver error.
02-04-2018, 12:25 AM
#48
Three Wheelin'
https://youtu.be/SNtS_KVbpH0
yep, agree on all points. no lift is not a real factor, especially in a power on oversteer. its all about keeping the steering wheel on a "string" with the rear end.. match it, and you have full control.............unless it is uncontrollable. a snap oversteer that ends up in reverse spin is an unrecoverable oversteer, caused by TOO much countersteer input. it creates a force that has a reaction that is too much to overcome. may as well had a "pit manuver" acted on him/her.
Thats a pretty good description, but i would add that the tank slapper, often very similar in the horizontal plane, compared to a pilot induced occilation, are all driver/pilot induced by a lack of correct timing and amount of correction of control input. every correction has to be mached to the situation, in amount of correct, and release and timing of correction .
i have never really seen snap oversteer, but i have seen "snap" correction. usually when (for example) when you go intto a banked section of track, in an oversteer conditino and then as you enter the turn, it regains grip and surprises the driver who has input the proper amount for a non cambered turn. the results can be an directional change taking the car off track.
both...........the car can be spun around by not enough , and timing of the initial counter steer. the "snap" oversteer in the other direction is usually worse, and gives the car's rear end , even more momentum in the other direction if the timing, not so much the initial correction is not matching the recovery requirements.... this usually ends up with the second oversteer, spinning the car aournd (called snap oversteer) and the car ends up going backward into the inside turn wall. or if a third oversteer happens, you end up plowing into the wall head on. this is very common for most turn exits that end up in walll contact.
you need to practice it.. in many conditions. most get a taste of it and get quite goood in snow, but snow is much slower. the skills are related, but not the same. grip is a huge factor and so is speed.
also, often not mentioned , is track surface angles. the more you experiment and understand and learn how the car will react in may different conditions, the better you get at the skill
actually, the crash on the inside wall of the turn is the lack of timing of the control and amount (usually too much and too slow) input from first oversteer, which ends up with a rear end crash , or one more oversteer from lack of proper timing of the second oversteer condition , where that will end up with a frontal inpact on the wall. i have a few of them shown on a video i made early in my racing days.
:43 and 1:45 are two good examples of just not correcting enough with input. you rotate around and hit the way in the rear. this is not a "snap" this is just not correcting soon or without enough input . totally driver error.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zNVKNau72gs
yep, agree on all points. no lift is not a real factor, especially in a power on oversteer. its all about keeping the steering wheel on a "string" with the rear end.. match it, and you have full control.............unless it is uncontrollable. a snap oversteer that ends up in reverse spin is an unrecoverable oversteer, caused by TOO much countersteer input. it creates a force that has a reaction that is too much to overcome. may as well had a "pit manuver" acted on him/her.
Thats a pretty good description, but i would add that the tank slapper, often very similar in the horizontal plane, compared to a pilot induced occilation, are all driver/pilot induced by a lack of correct timing and amount of correction of control input. every correction has to be mached to the situation, in amount of correct, and release and timing of correction .
i have never really seen snap oversteer, but i have seen "snap" correction. usually when (for example) when you go intto a banked section of track, in an oversteer conditino and then as you enter the turn, it regains grip and surprises the driver who has input the proper amount for a non cambered turn. the results can be an directional change taking the car off track.
both...........the car can be spun around by not enough , and timing of the initial counter steer. the "snap" oversteer in the other direction is usually worse, and gives the car's rear end , even more momentum in the other direction if the timing, not so much the initial correction is not matching the recovery requirements.... this usually ends up with the second oversteer, spinning the car aournd (called snap oversteer) and the car ends up going backward into the inside turn wall. or if a third oversteer happens, you end up plowing into the wall head on. this is very common for most turn exits that end up in walll contact.
you need to practice it.. in many conditions. most get a taste of it and get quite goood in snow, but snow is much slower. the skills are related, but not the same. grip is a huge factor and so is speed.
also, often not mentioned , is track surface angles. the more you experiment and understand and learn how the car will react in may different conditions, the better you get at the skill
actually, the crash on the inside wall of the turn is the lack of timing of the control and amount (usually too much and too slow) input from first oversteer, which ends up with a rear end crash , or one more oversteer from lack of proper timing of the second oversteer condition , where that will end up with a frontal inpact on the wall. i have a few of them shown on a video i made early in my racing days.
:43 and 1:45 are two good examples of just not correcting enough with input. you rotate around and hit the way in the rear. this is not a "snap" this is just not correcting soon or without enough input . totally driver error.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zNVKNau72gs
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02-04-2018, 12:43 AM
#49
Rennlist Member
Originally Posted by sugarwood
Let's face it, basically no one goes to rally school, so it's little more than a theoretical explanation.
People aren't going to rally school, nor are they practicing correcting oversteer at 70mph at DE days.
Most people don't get to "practice" snap oversteer but a few times in their lives. (often, moments before a crash)
I just find it absurd for guys to think they are experts on something they've literally done once or twice in their entire lives.
The end result is guys just parroting what they've read (magazine racers)
Don't lift! Counter steer! etc. But, they've really only done it once or twice themselves on a track.
People aren't going to rally school, nor are they practicing correcting oversteer at 70mph at DE days.
Most people don't get to "practice" snap oversteer but a few times in their lives. (often, moments before a crash)
I just find it absurd for guys to think they are experts on something they've literally done once or twice in their entire lives.
The end result is guys just parroting what they've read (magazine racers)
Don't lift! Counter steer! etc. But, they've really only done it once or twice themselves on a track.
I've caught huge slides and I attribute that to rally school
Many guys I regularly race against all have also subsequently gone to rally school based on my suggestion and universally come back saying it helps give them skills and confidence to slide and catch cars
02-04-2018, 08:54 AM
#50
Rennlist Member
Almost ten yrs ago, at Skippy racing school, we spent one whole afternoon in the MX-5's at a single turn of the small Limerock track with tons of runoff space playing a "game": Who can enter the turn the fastest, induce the largest oversteer (bring the car as close to perpendilcular as possible) and recover it without spinning or getting off the track? At times I did up to 6 tank slappers before recovering.
Everything changed for me after that day. Instead of gingerly approaching the grip limit wondering what happens if/when I reach it or overshoot it, I began to comfortably straddle it -- making steering/throttle corrections at all times. Now, if I'm not "there", I'm just putzing around, wasting time/gas/tires/brakes for no reason.
Everything changed for me after that day. Instead of gingerly approaching the grip limit wondering what happens if/when I reach it or overshoot it, I began to comfortably straddle it -- making steering/throttle corrections at all times. Now, if I'm not "there", I'm just putzing around, wasting time/gas/tires/brakes for no reason.
02-04-2018, 10:48 AM
#51
I suppose just about any oversteer is technically saveable if you can beat the car's rotation rate with your steering before you hit max lock.. I've talked to drift car guys that use fast racks with extra steering angle to make it easier.
There is a trick that may help if you notice your steering isn't fast enough though. If you use throttle combined with hard brakes you can lock up your fronts while the engine power counteracts rear brakes to keeps the rear tires rolling. This can save you from a seemingly unsaveable spin at the cost of possibly flat spotting your fronts. I remember seeing a video of an F1 driver doing this. I want to say it was Mark Webber, but I'm not positive. I'll see if I can find the video.
There is a trick that may help if you notice your steering isn't fast enough though. If you use throttle combined with hard brakes you can lock up your fronts while the engine power counteracts rear brakes to keeps the rear tires rolling. This can save you from a seemingly unsaveable spin at the cost of possibly flat spotting your fronts. I remember seeing a video of an F1 driver doing this. I want to say it was Mark Webber, but I'm not positive. I'll see if I can find the video.
Last edited by AdamBrouillard; 02-04-2018 at 11:29 AM.
02-04-2018, 10:52 AM
#52
Rennlist Member
Danny Sullivan. Indy 500. Nuff said.
02-05-2018, 08:05 AM
#54
I've been to rally school, twice
I've caught huge slides and I attribute that to rally school
Many guys I regularly race against all have also subsequently gone to rally school based on my suggestion and universally come back saying it helps give them skills and confidence to slide and catch cars
I've caught huge slides and I attribute that to rally school
Many guys I regularly race against all have also subsequently gone to rally school based on my suggestion and universally come back saying it helps give them skills and confidence to slide and catch cars
02-05-2018, 08:31 AM
#55
WRONGLY ACCUSED!
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Before I ever drove on the track I thought I was a good driver. First time on track was a humbling experience.
True car control skill comes from time on the skid pad.
In the days before telemetry a lot of testing was done on skid pads. Read Mark Donohue's book the Unfair Advantage. What separated him from others was the amount of testing he did.
True car control skill comes from time on the skid pad.
In the days before telemetry a lot of testing was done on skid pads. Read Mark Donohue's book the Unfair Advantage. What separated him from others was the amount of testing he did.
02-05-2018, 08:46 AM
#56
I wish we had access to a skid pad somewhere. My region sets one up at the IDS events but we really didn't get enough time on it. It was a lot of fun, but not hugely valuable.
02-05-2018, 09:00 AM
#57
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02-05-2018, 09:02 AM
#58
Rennlist Member
Found a video of Max Verstappen doing the throttle+ brake save. It's at 2 min. It's in the rain so works really well and no flat spots.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IOq1NZ-7eSI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IOq1NZ-7eSI