tvr-4

Ah, yes, the light poles 😇

AdamBrouillard

Have you tried autocross? Very safe way to find the limit of your car.

MarcD147

there is a significant difference, at least mentally but I suspect also physically, to use throttle and steering wheel to get a car at the edge of traction around a corner at 30mph vs 110 mph.

then there is the issue of adding a curb to that 110 mph corner (which you wont find at the autox)

point in case:
I am comfortable at T10 at NJMP, getting ok at T12 but not comfortable at T3
for me T10 has been a great place to learn and then start to gradually apply to those skills to incremental faster/more difficult corners.

DTMiller

Ross Bentley's Speed Secrets Weekly #178 addresses this topic in depth. Ross says at the bottom of each issue

"If you want others to enjoy what you get from Speed Secrets Weekly, go ahead and forward this one issue to them and suggest they sign up for themselves by going to speedsecretsweekly.com.

But don't get in the habit of sharing it because that's against the copyright rules - plus, it would be a big pain in the butt to do that every week. Let them work for it!"

So PM me an email address and I'll forward just that issue to you, just like Ross said I can.

GT3DE

Find a car like yours that is faster than you. Get in line on grid behind him. Glue yourself to his bumper. Hang on for dear life.

sbelles

Actually, it's the perfect place. Just be smart about it. Start with slow corners without much consequence. I didn't catch where you are located or what tracks you run but most have some good corners to start on. It's not really about finding the cars limits, it's about finding your limits to approach those but that can keep changing. That's what makes it so much fun.

fleadh

If you're comfortable anywhere, you're going to slow. But, I know what you mean... :-)

-mike

DTMiller

Step 1: Watch Mike's videos
Step 2: Just do whatever he does
Step 3: Congrats, you just found your and your car's limits
Step 4: Write check to body shop

ProCoach

Agreed. Nearly every recognized professional school curriculum includes this.

I think there IS a significant difference mentally, but NOT a significant difference physically to "use throttle and steering wheel to get the a car at the edge of traction around a corner at 30 mph vs 110 mph."

First off, you don't "use the throttle and steering wheel" to get it there, you use it to fix issues while there, in a planned and controlled way.

Throttle and steering can help adjust the slip angle through and off the corner, but the car has to be slightly unstable to initiate this flexible state, otherwise called "the limit."

I define the limit as a state that the SMALLEST change of a control input effects a change in the DIFFERENCE between the cornering radius (trajectory) and the cornering attitude (heading).

Use ENTRY SPEED and BRAKE RELEASE to get it there, first in slower corners, but the physics are the same with faster ones, as well (sure, we can talk about aero all we want, but GT cars are not fundamentally "aero cars"). Wings and splitters, dive planes and such are generally used to "trim" the balance or reduce lift as much as add downforce, but that is another thread topic.

I like your case, but as Mike says, T10 is a corner that should have an "unstuck" middle and exit, and if you're WOT as soon as you should be out of T9, an "unstuck" entry, too!

T12 is to me like T10 at VIR. IF the car is loaded correctly, the curb becomes a non issue, but MUST be used to open the radius.

T3 is as much of a vision issue (read: mental) as a physical one, so for that, you need to construct in your mind a vision of where you want to go, BEFORE you can see it...

It's true that the best way to develop a "feel" for the limit (a dynamic situation too often momentary and reactionary, for most drivers) is to start in slow corners to progressively "unstick the car" and then, as confidence and competence improve, move this to quicker corners.

TXE36

I was going to suggest something similar. Oh, there's the limit...whack!

Skidpad, car control school, and autocross all should help.

-Mike

Sven76

Not a good idea. Have seen GT3RS on technical tracks who threw their car almost into armco because they tried to follow my poor GT4 (or a tiny cheap Lotus, talented driver in M2,...) in technical sections. And I am not a driving god but still have some way to go. My advise is always to work with pro instructors who will push you to you limit and have the ability to judge your driving skills so that this all is a safe exercise.

MarcD147

lots of wisdom as usual...
T12 is something I worked on for 1.5 days last week. the thing that strangely enough got me there is similar to what you explain...

for a day there was wetness at the exit of 10 which enabled me to go flat through 12 then when the wetness slowly disappeared I slowly increased my speeds through 12 by staying flat and thus got over a mental issue (and actually if you drive the line correctly flat is not bad at all..)
and yes I used more inside curbing than previously too which opened up the corner very nicely..

I should hire you one day so I can make some faster progress instead of spending days to figure out a "small issue" and often enough not fixing it at all.

T3 is on the todo list together with a few other items...

ProCoach

Good insight to the learning process.

In the end, we all need to construct a belief system that allows us to be more comfortable doing things at speeds we were formerly uncomfortable before. Which, believe it or not, Clarke has done in his own way very well.

I do NOT believe "one size fits all," and I do think careful, reasonable people are challenged more by this than "naturally talented" drivers. It's fun to study what it takes for people to make that step up, then again, then again...

We'll get together sometime. It's been a struggle finding open dates for the last few years. Hopefully, that will change.

dgrobs

While I am not an advanced driver (Black/Red), I do about 12 to 15 DE's a year and have for the last few years and have steadily improved and moved up the run group chart slowly.
As mentioned many times already in this thread, coaching and seat time have been the keys to my advancement.
The more seat time you have, the smoother you will get. The smoother you get, the faster you get. The faster you get, the better you get. The better you get, the more seat time you get.
It's a cycle that has worked very well for me, and I know I still have a long long way to go.
Seat time, and lots of it, is the key, at least they are to me. At my most recent DE's, I drove in Blue solo and while I was able to pass some cars, I was more than happy to give point by's to others and follow them and see what they were doing that made them better and faster than I was.
It's all about seat time. Do as many DE's as you can, watch your videos and data, and listen closely to what your instructors are telling you.
Seat time my friend. Seat time.

MarcD147

actually I disagree.. seat time is a, albeit small, component

it is about doing the right thing in that seat time. reinforcement of mistakes doesn't make you a better driver. it just makes you more confident in your mistakes.

pick a single goal however small and be real good at it for that session
eg anyone of the below is a good goal; once you get better you combine multiple into one

• hit all apexes perfectly in a single lap
• hit all turn ins and all apexes perfectly in a single lap
• zero traction control engagement (while maintaining laptimes)
• not be surprised by a faster car showing up in a mirror
• laptimes consistent within .5 s
• smooth break relase
• etc
• etc

another good one is when you make a mistake, immediately and while driving, out loud explain what caused the mistake (eg eyes not up enough, abrupt turn in etc). this analysis will enable you to get better