CGT Prices
 

Walker crash going to stall the recent CGT price appreciation? Thoughts?

From what I've heard, prices have gone up since the tragic crash. In the last week I've been asked by several dealers if I would sell my car. Go figure?

CGT prices have been sky rocketing in the last 6 months. mid to low $300's are now high $300's. Wonder if I can still get in at the $330-$350k range for a <7000 mile silver exterior/black interior.

The crash and the 918 have given the CGT a little boast (a la James Dean Spider crash). Price appreciation especially surprising considering we are entering Winter. Great news for owners.

prices will climb as result.

Everybody loves a dangerously fast supercar.
The car has the "taming the Lion" appeal from all the press.
Alot of high dollar egos out there that wanna be seen taming the Lion.

I still want one for what it represents and not because of what it can do.
I love the engine.

To be honest, the ring time is not even that impressive anymore on the car.
But it truely is a timeless Porsche.

Imagine if they did a ring time in a CGT with supersport rubber, and the new generation brakes, nothing else changes on the car.

15 seconds better?? I believe this would be possible.

While I do acknowledge that the buzz surrounding the 918 Spyder, and the mainstream media coverage of Paul Walker's death, will increase attention on the CGT, I don't actually think it'll affect the prices as much. And it's definitely not the reason for the skyrocketing list prices of the CGT.

How can I say this?

Well, over the past 9 months, there has been a severely unnatural run-up in supercar list prices (and, yes, sale prices, too). In Porsche land, I point to the 997.2 GT3 RS 4.0. In Ferrari land, I point to the 288 GTO, F40, F50, and Enzo.

Yes, the 991 GT3 is causing the RS 4.0 (and the RS 3.8) to rise in value a little bit, but the increase has been extremely unnatural. Same goes for the Enzo (and its predecessors), and LaFerrari. Enzo's used to trade hands at $1.1m to $1.4m. Now they're being listed at $2.8m. Of course, there is a difference between sale/trade prices, and list prices, but you aren't going to sell at $1.2m if you list at $2.8m. An F40 that sold at Amelia Island earlier this year for $715k is going across the block at Scottsdale in January 2014, and is expected to fetch over $1m. Last year they were selling in the $600k-$650k range.

Be careful out there. That's all I can say. (Those of you who rode the dot com bubble up, and down, will understand... as I have. And the real estate bubble, heh.)

I cant see super sports producing 15 seconds and the brakes are pretty decent as is.

Would like to see the time on slicks, but then again same goes for every other car tested on the ring.

I have thought the same thing since the new tires have come out. Would love to see what it'd do. I'm no Ring expert, but my guess is 15 seconds also.

See 993 prices also - especially low mileage turbos and turbo s models.

Ah yes, indeed. Thanks! :) I knew I was forgetting something blatant. Heh.

I'm all for value appreciation of our beloved toys / investments, but not the unnatural kind. It never, ever, ends in a good way. :(

4.0 prices are ridiculous. I was looking at one and it sold within a week for over $300K.

This.

Since the "recovery" from the 2008 crisis, a lot of people have made millions/billions.

The price bubble isn't just happening to the S&P/DJIA. It's happening to Porsches, Ferraris, WINE and even art.

I'd be very cautious looking at these cars as investments when many markets are at inflated or perhaps even all-time-highs.

In fact, just today I was reading this piece and it reminded me of this thread.

http://www.latimes.com/business/la-f...#axzz2my3gz3nW

I think someone in another thread also commented that as the far east gains more and more of an upper middle class, the car market will shift to inflate prices reflecting their tastes.

So yes, "be careful out there".

Your logic here would suggest a long term bull run of prices as demand across the globe increases for good cars. The supply of the old analogue cars is over. I cant tell exactly what will happen over the next 20 yrs with these cars. It will be interesting..........

Thats exactly my opnion "The supply of the old analogue cars is over"...lots of people talk about pre 2008 and after the crisis..but maybe this is not the reason..since roughly also 2008 analog cars are dead..with the exception of the GT3-GT2 997s. The new kids on the block, 458, MP 4-12 are not analog cars anymore and are loosing serious money...yes the C-GT as an analog car also lost some money..but since about 1-2 years prices have stabilised..maybe even a slight rise. Same goes for 4.0 ect..but here the rise is too sharp. Anyway, its seems that analog cars are at least not loosing money anymore

I just cant imagine that a C-GT, 4.0 etc will be one day at 100k..even if we are in the deepest recession..because most people didnt buy these things on loan..so no "force" to sell..the game for 458, 991s, MP4-12s..will be a totally different one.

I will keep the analog cars..if possible get some more..:D

The analog theme is indeed a sure bet in the collector world. Always a lust for the pure and simple.
20 years from now, I would pass out if i walked into your collection :)

Definitely see CGT prices to just keep going up just like the F40 has continued to do.

The day an F40, CGT and the like go to 100K is the day the world has SERIOUS issues in which case you will be glad you can go downstairs in your house thats now worthless, and turn on your CGT.......

That moment will be Priceless..

Not wanting to be insensitive, but the truth is that in the case of the CGT with such limited number, each one that is destroyed, decreases the potential supply thus increasing prices. I cannot see crashed of the CGT hurting their prices, they're are not Teslas on Fire.

Second thought, on the analog cars, cars I believe has great potential in the future to become collector's item are the 997.1 with Mezger Engine, turbo, gt2, gt3.

what tires were rolling stock on a CGT??

Michelin Pilot Sport PS2 were OEM tires.

Couldnt agree more ..!..:)

:)..in 20 years we will both go together to our collections..and you have already 3 nice analog cars..youre on a good way :)

I dont know about you guys, but Im going for seconds on the CGT. I believe, hands down, it is the GREATEST sports car ever made.

F40's pale in comparison. F50's may be just a step under. You might say an F1 is better, but certainly not affordable so there is doubt in my mind. ;)

The CGT is already not affordable to 98% of americans. Most who can afford a CGT can afford an F40, F50 or F1.

Those are, IMO, not even worth mentioning with the CGT. They're just in a realm above the great CGT. It's what the CGT's designers aspired it to be like and in that, it succeeded, but it is not better in any way.

My flame suit is on as I realize what forum I'm posting this on. :biggulp:

Well, at least 8 editors/writers at EVO who drove them all back to back do not agree with you.......

I certainly respect their opinions.

Also I did not intend to derail the thread. It seems we all agree CGT prices are high and short term will go up. Long term is anyone's guess. It's easier to forecast the next economic recession than where CGT prices will be 20 years from now in 2033.

Well no wonder a bunch of brits picked the F1.

CGT was right there, I dont know how I am really wrong?


Back to the topic, you cant help look at cars in the same category and wonder why CGT's are still less than half the value. Certainly not half the car at $375k for a good car. I dont know how it goes cheaper at anytime?

Have you looked at F1 prices lately?
The one that sold at Pebble Beach in August at auction went for $8.35M, there are two more that sold privately in Europe this year for that much or more. #029, which sat in a Japanese BMW dealership showroom most of its life sold a couple months ago with only its delivery miles on it for a rumoured $12M.
I love all of these analog supercars, but I think the F1's pricepoint puts it into a different stratosphere of collectors.

The S&P 500 appreciation comment brought some good clarity to this thread for me. As the OP I posted this thread because I was wondering why the CGT had gone up so much in the last 6 months (from low-mid $300's to mid-high $300's). I think the S&P comment hit the nail on the head-- the main reason is that the S&P has gone up 30% in the last year.

Hello gentlemen. While on the subject of CGTs, I have been trying to get my hands on a low mileage (under 3000 miles) one with out success. If anyone can assist me in locating one in preferably red, black or yellow, it would be greatly appreciated.

Look, we had a nice forum -- with persons that could afford and at least appreciate a CGT. And many who could honestly evaluate the car (and sometimes aspire to it). Now we have redleg321 with some big Soviet hat who is clueless about car prices and I seriously doubt has driven a F40, F50 or F1 (the car that I would actually put in the same camp as a CGT if not better just for seating configuration). But there you go -- the perils of social media. The do nothing's and have nots pretending that they are just as knowledgable or experienced -- or deserve to be! -- but alas, actually aren't. But that doesn't stop the endless self conjecture that drivels onto a blog without any back-up or support. Flame suit on (oh tee hee hee) -- really? No problems if have an opinion if actually could provide real support for your arguments. But knowing all or these cars, I highly doubt it. It's cool to be cool. Or to pretend to be cool. But there is nothing cool about a con artist...

Actually, not a "con artist" but those that profess to know far more than they do (Oregon least even provide real support for their opinions). From the many that do rigorously examine these cars and provide meaningful feedback, it's sad to such such commentary...

Relax. Car prices are not fact just an opinion and the poster you referred to has his opinion. I'm not sure what it is but it doesn't matter.

If I could afford one of these cars I'd buy one a heart beat and enjoy the heck out of it and hold on to it like you wouldn't believe.

I strongly suspect the prices of these cars will continue to climb though frankly I wouldn't care. As long as I enjoyed the car, that's all that would matter to me.

Prices -- climb or fall. It's not the point. It's about the car itself and how it is different or the similar to other cars with some actual back-up (sorry for being difficult)? I drive the car more than I write comments here. Let's hear from those who have real experience rather than those with trite sound bites because of a recent crash. I do love almost all super cars and I own a CGT for reasons that I can support (good or bad). So if someone has an in-depth familiarity with a F40, F50, F1 and a CGT, then let them speak. All ears. I know my opinion. But if not, then please don't bother us with your supposed learned-ness or false sophistication. It's embarrassing to real folks...

Directing my comments much less at redleg321 (who. I meant nothing personal by), but to some commentators here who have no real experience with any real analog supercars, yet feel they must state their "theoretical" opinion about all the "great and good." Maybe it's a form of vicariously living though other persons' cars (got it). But lets just please hear from folks that actually own a high end sports car -- no problems with the F40, F50 or certainly the F1 -- for real commentary. Cheers, Steve

You certainly directed one of your posts at me, commenting that I have a soviet hat and ignorantly speculating what I've driven. I'm assuming you're not stupid enough to believe that but if you are, my avatar isn't actually a picture of me. Just do a google image search, if you know how.

As Marcster pointed out, you're taking this thread way too seriously.

..

Helicopter Ben

I think you're off by at least an order of magnitude.

The top 2% only earn $250k/yr.

Maybe 5 years ago, but at $SPX ~1800 (and other economic measures) I don't think that figure is accurate. Also it's important to look at wealth, not just reported income.

I'll accept your correction, though.

that can't be.
i guess if you exclude bay area?
top 2% here i would venture to guess over $5MM a year or maybe even $10MM? we have clients paying $1-3MM on income tax. i need a new job...

Maybe in atherton or Los altos hills! Ave income in bay is about 100k and top 1% income earners is about 550k income annually. La metro that is about 450k. Nationally top 1% is under 400k annually.

Wow. That sucks.

Do they make Super Sports in CGT sizes?

Yes, N-rated Super Sports now available for the CGT. Just had them fitted to my car but will have to wait for better weather to try them out. Looking forward to that day because by all accounts they are a big improvement.

Cheers

The tires are a drastic improvement--you won't believe the difference! Enjoy!!

I don't think you understand how steep the inequality curve is. 1% is middle class. You're not "rich" until you're in the 0.1%.

The Carrera GT I believe is at bargain prices currently.

No other car can in this price range, can match its driving characteristics and its exotic construction. It's a piece of art!

The car after 10 years it still looks Cutting edge ,as if it roll off the assembly line today.

The next step up in exotic cars would have to be either that F40, F 50, Enzo's, F1.

These cars are in the million-dollar range currently, where you can now purchase a Carrera GT for $300 - $400,000, at half the price.

Now that's a bargain!

For me, the CGT is the step up!

:eek:

u are right!

The current definition of rich is being worth $5M or more. And top 1% 'middle class'? Do you know the definition of 'middle'? :D That level qualifies as very rich at least. And the top 0.1% filthy rich. That inequality means the middle class is disappearing, not that the middle class is rich now. VERY different :D.

The Ferrari's you referenced are currently experiencing an unnatural hike in list prices, and sale prices. Bubble territory. Many of us are watching from the sidelines.

The McLaren F1? Oof, went from trading hands at ~$3.5m two to three years ago, to over $8m recently.

I've ridden enough investment bubbles to get goosebumps right now.

But yes, I agree that the CGT is an incredibly special car, and it will remain timeless.

The 1% are definitely not "very rich". At 1% you might be able to swing a second house if you are stingy with your finances. It's merely comfortable, not rich. You can't retire early from your job or anything. You're one medical event from being wiped out.

It's obviously not mathematically middle but that's also obviously not the definition I mean because those guys (50%) are barely making ends meet, in fact they aren't quite.

Nobody with only $5MM in assets in the US considers themselves rich.

I can't imagine the Paul Walker wreck having any effect on CGT prices because most people don't even know what it is. I have a GT3 and I've had 10+ people ask me about Walker wrecking in 'my' car. Most people just hear "Porsche GT" and equate GT to any Porsche GT in the name.

now aint that tru

couldnt agree more..:)

Prices have really heated up over the last 6 months. I know of a 05 that just sold for close to $600k and there are others out there priced in the mid to high $500s.

What are others seeing and hearing?
Whats the time frame for $1M?

I seen around $450k but never $500s or $600s.

This is formally called an investment bubble. ;)

And is why I'm sitting on the sidelines, watching.

Its just begun.
The CGT has been an undervalued car for way too long.
Buckle up!

I agree it's been slightly devalued for a while, but it hasn't just begun. The supercar investment bubble started ~9 months ago, and has been growing dramatically.

I'm buckling up for the burst. :( Just as I have for the past couple recent investment bubbles. (No, I wasn't around for the tulip bubble. Thankfully.)

Lets regroup in 2015.

I doubt it'll pop by then. Let's regroup in 2017-2018. ;)

Besides, this isn't a competition. I'm not saying you're right/wrong. :)

I'm just sayin', I'm approaching this cautiously. I want CGT's to appreciate in value. I want all my supercars to appreciate in value, but I want it to be natural/organic/sustainable. Unnatural price run-ups are known as bubbles, and nature always likes to revert back to its resting state (bubbles pop, and the repercussions are vast and painful). You cannot force an unnatural state forever.

I agree 100%.
My only point is the car is undervalued and Im bullish on long term values, not only because there is one in the garage but for many factors, way too much to type and back to work I go. :)

:thumbup:

One thing that chaps my a$$ is when people refer to those with top 1% income as rich. I know people with 1% incomes that live paycheck to paycheck. Income and wealth are two very different things.

I don't know about middle America but this is certainly true in the SF Bay Area.

<off topic>
Indeed. Top 1% of taxpayers? That's barely "rich." Sadly, the other 99% who aren't close to the 1% still hate on the hard working 1%'ers because of their situation. It's easier to hate on them than to aspire to be more or greater, and then work towards it.
</off topic>

It's a good point. All us 1%ers need to band together against the 0.1%er oppressors!!!

kidding of course. That's not to say income distribution isn't a problem. The report just came out that since '09, 95% of the recovery went to the 1%. That's a real, systemic problem and not just something for welfare folks to complain about.

I wonder what percentage of the loss in the 2008-09 crash was suffered by the same 1%?

Well, allow me to misuse the term but the PPP of the working poor has been steadily declining since what, the 70s? It's a generational disaster when hard working folks can't keep up.

I guess we really need to change the title to this thread as "Porsche Supercars: can they be afforded anymore?" Btw, do people really believe that the quality of the average working person's life has declined from the 70's (what happened to the big boost in the 80s?). The manipulation of data (government transfer payments are not included etc.) and the misleading jargon around the "1%" -- it's composition changes a lot overtime (at least in a capitalistic economy which is why rich liberals love socialism -- protects their position in society). Anyhow, not to be callous, but we could either start a new thread on this fascinating debate and leave this one further comments the pricing of the wonderful CGT? NO big deal, just a suggestion...

I would say 10. I know pp in the 5 area and it would be difficult to say "rich"..and they dont blow their money away.

I think somewhere in the definition of "supercar" it expressly forbids them from being "affordable", otherwise they would be much more ordinary.

CGT is the last of a breed

:thumbup:

Getting back to the topic of the thread. Porsche Carrera GT Prices. Yes they have gone up recently in the last 9 months, however the appreciation has been a lot less than the S&P 500. The S&P has gone up ~30% in the last year but CGT prices went up about 15% (from $350K to $400K). It is great CGT prices actually went up, but I wouldn't consider it an "investment."

It could be a fine investment if it increases 15% per year and has lower volatility than the s&p. some prefer investments that are slower and steadier than stocks ...

I don't actually know the history of pricing, that would be interesting to plot month by month against the SP

Are you serious?
How many miles were on the 05 selling for $600k?
I've only seen very low miles sell for close to $500k but haven't seen any asking for over $500k

700 miles
The car sold very quick.

Marshall Goldman's had a 758 mile '05 CGT for $469k for quite a while now.
http://inventory.mgmsl.com/web/used/...Ohio/10647235/

They sold it.

Had to have been recently. They had it on eBay a couple of weeks ago.

Correct.

I called on it last week and it was sold to a buyer in Houston, Texas. Price was not divulged.

445.

They sold it for $448K

I've noticed some car's prices rising as others languish unsellable. Are the higher mileage cars really worth that much less?
Having been through the late 80's runup of car prices, I am getting that old feeling again. The prices skyrocketed, then almost overnight, took a nose dive.
It just seems silly that a car with 15000 miles is worn out to some and they wont even consider buying it. Whereas they will pay big bucks for a low mileage non "worn out" car that they wont drive.
It's those buyers that will be the first to bail.
Musical chairs all over again.

I don't think that the "higher mileage" CGTs are worthless or worn out. I think that most people looking for a CGT (or really any car in that price range) tend to want the best they can find, so adding another 10-20% to the price of an already $400k car, is no big deal if they're getting one that's perfect.

I dont think they are worn out either, but all the news now, is about the prices of low mileage cars. If they are actual sales to end users and not dealer hype, (as happened in the late 80's), then to me, it is irrational to put that much more value on a lower mileage car. There are at least 2 cars that I know of with mileage over 15000 miles that haven't sold, and they are priced in the low 300's.
Then we hear of cars that have sold for 500k and more?
200k difference.
Buy a 15000 mile CGT and a Ford GT for the same price as one lower mileage CGT. Seems like a better deal to me. But that's me, as I'll never be able to justify a 200k premium for 14000 less miles. My savings come too hard fought for that much "perfection".

15,000 miles is nothing for this car. It is so well built and over engineered. It's a Porsche and it loves miles. Mine only has 14,000 and runs stronger than ever and when you look at it closely, the interior shows like a 2,500 mile example. The seats don't wrinkle or wear like some of the earlier 911's I've seen from the late nineties or early 2000's. It's such a quality build that if you take reasonable care, it holds up extraordinarily well.

Care to let us know where the higher mileage CGT's are located? Please send my a PM if needed.

Thanks.

DJ

There's a reasonably compelling argument that the owners who do put a decent clip of miles onto the cars like them enough that they would almost never sell them so those for sale always end up as the low-ish mileage ones...

My friend in Escondido, Ca. has a black basalt one that has been a daily driver. He has 27,000 miles on it.

I saw that one on ebay and looked into it. The seller said he owed $325,000 on it so the price was non-negotiable. The fact that a CGT owners is maxed out on a car loan to own a CGT is not what I want to hear (makes me wonder about the owner, service and upkeep).

I also googled his name and there were several past lawsuits against him including justice dept shutting down his business for mortgage fraud and mis-representation.

Lastly he has the car listed on the DuPont registry and in the background of each photo is another outdated black toy (Black pick up, black mercedes, black speed boat). It made it look like the owner bought a bunch of toys with loans. Not a typical CGT owner/collector. Didn't give me confidence in the seller.

Darn near MSRP.

So what are people considering "low" miles?
Anything under 1000, 2000, 5000?

I'm curious as to why the Ferrari super cars, F40, F50, Enzo, have seem to gone up near 50% in the last 6-9 mos. ??
And if the CGT shall follow a similar curve?

Sadly, it's called an investment bubble. Also known as an economic bubble or a speculative bubble. :(

First started with tulips back in 1637. :)

There's some mention of the tulip bubble here: http://www.forbes.com/sites/mikepatt...e-in-a-bubble/

I was just browsing ebay. There are 3 CGTs that appear to be legitimate, low mile cars. They are all in the $470k range. I've not seen such consistently high asking prices. Granted, what one asks and what one gets can be very different. However, given the anecdotal evidence from recent completed sales, it certainly appears that cars selling below 400k are a thing of the past. I feel quite confident that an unmolested example of the CGT will consistently bring 500k within the next 12 months. Ironically, the CGT is so brilliant that I can't bring myself to consider selling mine...what on earth would I replace it with? Battery powered cars just don't excite me. :(

Yes I see the black on terra cotta with 3k miles in NY asking $469k. So seems asking prices are definitely rising. As to what they are truly selling for .....

Edit: just got an email from FerrariFL and they have a black with 1600 miles for $499k

I agree, if the 960 gets produced, i think the CGT will take a hit. Because why would someone pay $375-$450 for old technology when they can get new technology more modern and much easier to drive for the same price. Some people will hold on to them and a lot will sell. That's when the bubble will burst. Just my opinion:icon107:

People will pay more for the Cgt for exactly the reasons you state above mr racer .
The fact that it has old technology , is analogue and more difficult to drive is in fact a plus to many , myself included .
I'd go as far as to say that the more cars become more and more electronic the higher prices will be for analogue cars like the f50 and Carrera gt not vice versa .

I agree with this.
It's the analogue nature of the car which will be even more rare as time goes on. The rarity of this aspect will increase its value IMHO.
Think of our poor children and generations after who won't even know how to drive a manual or how a manual even works....collector status.

By this analogy, the 959 prices should be under $200k since the turboS is much faster and has the current technology.

Hi buddy :) I am here too :)

I am guessing you will not be selling yours anytime soon.

When is your 918 due?

I believe there were 200 built world wide. That can be one reason.

Exactly !..The 959 is the best argument in favour of wtdooms point - in Europe good 959s can be bought for about 300k€..F40 is more close to 500k€..if not more. I guess history will repeat itself..in 20 years the P1 + la ferrari will be worh more then the 918..but its just a guess...

Im worried about our children however..they wont know what manual supercar is..they will only know prius type cars....

Interesting, there is a seal grey/terra cotta 05 with 3100 miles that was listed on eBay for $395k in Jan, relisted for $450k and now listed for $469k.

There are 4 of them on ebay and not selling. I have offered $400k for the seal greay/terracotta but seller would not take it.

3 of them are black--which does not give you a lot of choice if that's not what you're looking for.

Did he give a hint as to what he would sell for?
I assume this is the car that is a private sale?
I thought I saw 2 ads that were seal grey for sale in Jan? The one ad as was by DDW selling one with 2990 miles for $460k.
The other was by a private seller with 3100 miles for $395k at the time.
Both in Scottsdale so likely same car?

DDW was trying to sell the same car that the owner is trying to sell now. Owner told me he had a $425k offer on ebay but wanted $430k. Little strange the car is still around and not sold considering the offer of $425k and ask of $430k are so close. I prefer a red or yellow one but none around.

Hello matey , fancy finding you here !
918 due June but I pushed it back till Christmas . I'm not in Europe till then .

Btw e engines upgraded again to provide an over boost type function for limited periods and you can now launch control in all modes , I think even electric . Lol

Remember the last 959s sold for just over a million pounds ...

Wtdoom is right; one sold this last summer in Germany for around a €1,000,000. Wrote a sizeable contribution to the Chris Harris thread and then lost it before it posted will write it again -- but it goes precisely to the debate being discussed here. Cheers, Steve

That is because $400k is a number from mid 2013.

This has just been posted in the Rennlist vehicle marketplace :


https://rennlist.com/forums/vehicle-...181-miles.html


No affiliation.

What a beauty, and seems as if the car is without excuse. There may come a time when that price seems a bargain. It looks increasingly like high fours is becoming the norm.

Its an 04 as well. :)

There isn't any difference in spec between the 2004 and 2005 production.

So why the large price gap with every 04 to 05 car except the Isringhausen one. Is this just because people want the '05 cars? Is the price gap going to disappear over time? Thanks

My dad was just offered 435k for his 2005 4,600 mile guards red CGT. He wasn't interested in selling since he loves the car but I guess that can give some insight on how the market is actually doing. Only really see the market for them going up as many collectors don't seem to be too thrilled with all the new cars and all the fancy electronics.

The CGT is the only supercar that I am aware of where there is a price difference within production years, yet the specs are the same. Granted, this gap has shrunk to near zero, but has no logical reason to exist.

I suspect we have reached the point where the quality of the car itself will dictate the price, and this one looks perfect.

Powerful first post...hope it's true, honestly

Im not sure what the difference is between an analog car and digital car. The CGT looks to have enough electronics to be considered digital? ie: dash, stall preventer, variable timing, etc. Is the tach cable driven? is there linkage to the throttle or is it also electronic.

^ to me, any electronics that does not reinterpret the driver's input is still consider analog. Such as electronic throttle, electric steering, even variable steering, because they all have a specific, linear pattern that dictates how they react to driver input. Things like E-diff, traction control, falls into the category of reinterpretation, where the car's ECU makes up its own mind, and thus makes the car less analog. Is a digital Leica M9 still an analog camera, yes I think so, but a modern Cannon SLR definitely isn't. I think the new 918 Spyder is the epitome of digital car. To me, it's just a different driving experience, not better or worse.

^ i disagree, a digital leica is not a leica period.

Leica doesn't make anything these days. They are just a branded camera made by an ODM who also makes a number of other cameras for other brands. So yes, a digital Leica is not at all the same as the analog Leica.

Canon actually is the only camera manufacturer who makes their own DSLR and point and shoots. Nikon doesn't even make their own P&S.

I know off topic...

My Dear Friend Biko, Leica makes both the S, the M, the M-Monochrom and the X camera (to a lesser extent). I am not with Leica, btw. And they are truly remarkable. Cheers, Steve

^ well if we are gonna get technical, Leica is a lens maker not a camera maker, wouldn't you say? So all manual focus leica lenses are analogue, and auto focus one aren't. And by that definition, a leica body that is designed to work with a M mount lens is therefore an analogue camera. that'ts of course my opinion.

Also, I think what makes something digital versus analogue comes down more to user experience rather than a sum of parts.

Well, not disagreeing with your overall point, etc., maomao011, in cameras (in general), digital versus analog refers solely to the recording medium (CCD/CMOS sensor versus film) -- and this has influenced the development of cameras to a very big degree (bigger lens, smaller cameras) so their look is obviously "digital cameras". And some cameras are now called "retro" which harken back to the design of some of the older film cameras. And, while a big film buff for sometime, I can now very comfortably say that the modern digital cameras far exceed what was made possible by film (although this had a different look for a few reasons). For example, in general, a 35 mm digital camera today can easily rival medium format film.

Therefore, I don't think the use of the terms "analog versus digital" from cameras should really be applied to cars. One could say, for example, that using a Leica M rangefinder is far more involving than a SLR, but that applies to either a film or digital M.

I actually know the ODM that does the engineering and manufacturers the Leica cameras. So I guess it depends on one's definition of "make".

As almost all product companies use ODMs for manufacturing, I define "make" as being responsible for the engineering and large portions of the software. Probably a large grey zone of what defines "make" and just "branded".

The tell tale would be the number of hardware and software engineers on the company's payroll.

The last year of production runs are more desirable.
05s will trade for a premium.

That offer is too low in this market.

thanks I understand your idea of interpretation. To me, a pure machine is a steam engine with all its parts exposed. Once electrics and electronics get involved, I guess it's all a matter of interpreting our level of acceptance or comfort. I read where some say they prefer an analog car as opposed to a digital car and they place a premium on analog cars. Again, to me, a CGT is just as complicated as a 918. I cant work on either one. Therefore, I, myself, don't think a CGT more desirable than a 918. Might as well be an Apollo 12 capsule against a space shuttle. I will always have to have them fixed by trained techs.

I sort of had the same feeling. Few weeks back I saw some dealer in Atlanta had a guards red CGT for sale with 9,xxx miles and they were asking 469k, not sure what it ended up selling for, but it didn't last long on the market even at that price.

Whoa, 9k miles going for 469k?
Does guards red hold any premium over silver or black?

Yup. And yellow even more so.

nice, so I could double my mileage and still come out 100k ahead.

Gentlemen. I have been offered a yellow one with 800 miles on it but the car has been sitting for a long time. It needs new tires, service, seal is leaking and clutch needs replacement. The cost for everything is close to $40K. Can someone give me an idea what the car is worth?

With mileage under 1,000 and it being yellow, the car is easily worth $550,000 and maybe more. Subtract the service needed to make it perfect and there you are.

I was figuring $500,000 less service cost.... but they have going up a lot so $550,000 could be a real number at this time.

I really doubt $40k is enough to address all of the issues with it, $50 to $60 is more likely.

They sent me a written estimate showing $38,000 for everything but you are right as the cost could go even higher once they actually start doing the work..... BTW, I can buy a real nice car for $50K!

No.

I've had my yellow '05 CGT for about a year now. Love the car. It had a little over 7k miles when I bought it. About to turn over 10k miles. I'll worry about it's value when I'm about 75 and can't get my 6'4" frame folded up and into the car. Till then it's a keeper.

It will both add up due to more time required than they anticipated and other issues they will most definitely find along the way as they progress. $38k can also buy a pretty nice car!

interesting analysis. both are right. but i was not really talking about recording medium but rather the user feel. fire the shutter on an old leica view finder. the feel on the tip of your trigger finger... ah......

35mm is as good as medium format and actaully better. but i prefer the the soft fuzziness of mamiya rather than the sharp focuse of most 35mm SLR or DSLR.

finally the manipulation of negatives (if you can call it that in the digital world). not more dark room, no more carcinogenic developer fluilds,no more red lights, no more shirts covers with brown dots.....

ok, showing my age now...

back to CGT.

CGT000

I assume the yellow CGT is the one going for auction today.

It sold for 478,500 at Amelia Island.

Indeed. For those wondering, here's the link: http://www.rmauctions.com/lots/lot.cfm?lot_id=1065115

Totally forgot about this one, but now I remember why... Euro-spec car. With enough US-spec cars on the market here in the US, I dropped this one from my radar.

Add the 2.5% charge for US buyers places it right a 500k.

Many Ferrari's & Porsche's closed at 20% above the high side was hoping to see mid 5's for the yellow CGT.

Yes, but remember, that doesn't mean it's a $500k car in a non-auction / private sale. I know some people will have a philosophical argument with me on this, but I don't like to lump in auction fees when stating value of my car(s). Also, most collectible car insurers don't lump those fees in when allowing you to raise the agreed value of your car. Why? Because the seller doesn't get those fees, the auction house does. It's no different from not lumping in taxes/registration into the value of your car.

A Euro-spec low mileage yellow beauty is worth $478.5k. ;)

Agreement on fees - I was under the impression since it was a Euro Car there was an additional 2.5% charge due only if the car was to be bought by a US citizen and or registered in the US.

Oh, yes, you are right. :) Still, the rest of what I said holds.

But yes, you are correct. To be converted and registered in the US, there's more fees.

It doesn't happen very often :)

I was cheering for mid 5's - many left the US when they were undervalued one non Porsche dealer claims shipping over 20. The only thing I can see holding them back is how many odometers have a 1 followed by three digits.

Any idea how many are currently in the US?

It was not a euro spec car. It was originally sold in NY and the 2nd owner bought it and sent it to Canada. It was a US spec car.

But in order to bring it back to the US or if it was purchased by a US citizen it would still add 2.5%. I think it's fair to put it in the books as a 500k sale considering it was sold in Florida.

Novolari,

It depends on how you look at it. The seller did not realize $500k.

Ok - so let's go back to reality.

A few posts back you stated a similar or perhaps the same one was worth 500k but could go up to 550.

Did you buy it? Is it the same car?

Personally I think the CGT should be considered along the same lines as an F50.

it has the same DNA yet the F50 is now worth multiples of MSRP.

Yeah, again, I still stand by my statement that it's not a $500k sale. 2.5% is taxes. If you bought this car in CA (or are a CA resident planning to reg. it in CA), you'd have to pay 8 to 9% in sales tax. You can't ever count that as part of the sale price, nor the adjusted market value of the car.

(And thanks for the correction that it wasn't a Euro-spec car. I missed that in my haste, once I saw the mileage was noted in KM.)

Except there were a total of 478 Carrera GT's that came to the US according to PCNA. (There may be less here now.)

A total of 349 F50's were supposedly produced worldwide (although, Ferrari has a habit of making slightly more, for their loyal customers). That's a significant number less than the number of CGT's that were produced, let alone what made it to the US.

The mistake of the KM threw me off as well - imagine others who were interested may have backed off the car.

Indeed.

Yellow CGT's tend to command a meaningful premium. I have no doubt that RM listing KM's only, and not spelling it out more clearly, turned off a few of buyers.

Nuvolari,

Please read my old post again. I said in my opinion the car was worth $500k, less the cost of service, which would be $38K at minimum.
I stopped bidding at $420k.
I also agree with GreenLantern's opinion of not tacking on auctioneer's fees and taxes to the value of the car. In my opinion people should buy this car to enjoy driving it and not worry so much how much it would go up in value.

:thumbup:

As for the taxes/fees, no insurer will consider that as part of the agreed value, and neither should any of us. :)

I understand all that but here is what you said.

Gentlemen. I have been offered a yellow one with 800 miles on it but the car has been sitting for a long time. It needs new tires, service, seal is leaking and clutch needs replacement. The cost for everything is close to $40K. Can someone give me an idea what the car is worth?

All I really was asking if that is the same car that went to auction and if so how were you getting it at 500k.

Agree these cars should be driven for many reasons but it's their money to do with what they wish.

I hope whoever bought the car would truly enjoy it. I agree with you that it is their money to do what they wish.

CGT000, were you at the auction? If so, what was the hammer price?

I can tell you unequivocally that "Agreed Value" insurance can and does include taxes, fees, transport and any other expenses that one would incur if you had to enter the marketplace and purchase a like kind replacement for your car.

Smokey. I was not at the auction. I was bidding on the phone. Bidding started at $350 and went to $410 within a minute. I came in at $420. The $430 bid came in just before the hammer. I stopped at that point. Then came a $435 and he got the car.

I have to say that the yellow is absolutely stunning. I hope the new owner really enjoys it.

000 thanks for the reply. Since yellow and being an 05 with low miles brings a premium, I guess a silver 05 with similar miles and issues would come in at around 375? Higher mileage cars even less?

Secretcollector -- can you please elaborate. My agent tells me that "agreed value" is the exact amount I would receive in a total loss situation, nothing less and nothing more regardless of what the "market" is doing or what expenses might be incurred for shipping taxes etc. on a replacement. If the value of the car you have is increasing it is incumbent upon you to keep increasing the "agreed value" and pay the appropriate premium. Your stated value must be in line with current market conditions so that you cannot purchase a $10,000 beater and insure it for $1M, however if you want to insure a $300K car for $200k of its value and self insure for the other $100k that can be acceptable in certain instances.

I PM 'd you on service costs.

Here are some nice looking Carrera GTs. Not a big fan of the yellow one pictured above.

http://www.dupontregistry.com/autos/...e=Carrera%20GT

Bruce, your agent simply is wrong. The concept of Agreed Value insurance is to replace your lost item with the closest match without you having to pay a difference. The key is to use your total cost as the AV amount - purchase price plus all additional costs. If you bought yours below market, make sure to add reasonable amounts for what you will have to pay.

An insurer like Haggerty will have no issue with this approach.

Bojali. I did not get a PM from you.

Secrectcollector-- I believe what you just stated confirmed what I had posted and that is the AV value is your total cost. You will not receive payouts higher than your AV for additional costs for taxes, shipping etc. In an ACV (actual cash value) policy these items can and usually are an item for harsh negotiation with your insurance company. In short I believe any collector car of significant worth should be insured with an agreed value policy to avoid any conflicts with the insurance company should a total loss occur.

I know the guy who bought the Yellow - he would have paid whatever it took to own it.

He has an extremely expensive collection and is in his 20's.

I hope he drives it and enjoys the car.

sorry pm'd nuvolari612 since he was looking at service costs..

That's the way to buy! May he live long and prosper. ( I hope he's not the guy that wrecked that black f50) future Copart car?

Hope he's going to drive it.

Since you know the guy who bought it, would you know if he bought it as an investment or for driving pleasure? I'm also curious to know if he knew about the pre purchase inspection done by Brumos Porsche.

Whatever he knew was enough to peak his interest.

I have no idea why he bought it - he owns 5 Veyron's my guess is because he could :)

He is not - he also bought another yellow CGT for 550 - making it his third CGT.

Guess he likes em!

Wow!
Would love to see his collection...

[QUOTE=Plastique999;11214697]Wow!
Would love to see his collection...[/QUOTE

He is Steve Chen - sort of a big deal :) now it may make sense that when he was bidding the yellow CGT price was just a different hand stroke of the pen.

Chen was an employee at PayPal, where he first met Chad Hurley and Jawed Karim. Chen was also an early employee at Facebook, although he left after several months to start YouTube.[5]
In 2005, Chad Hurley, Jawed Karim and Chen founded YouTube, with Chen having the position of Chief Technology Officer. In June 2006, Chen was named by Business 2.0 as one of "The 50 people who matter now" in business.[6]
On October 16, 2006, Chen and Hurley sold YouTube to Google, Inc. for $1.65 billion. Chen received 625,366 shares of Google and an additional 68,721 in a trust as part of the sale. The Google shares that he received were reported to be worth over $326 million about 1 year later.[7]
He and Chad Hurley have now started AVOS Systems which has acquired Delicious from Yahoo! Inc.
Chen has been listed as one of the 15 Asian Scientists To Watch by Asian Scientist Magazine on 15 May 2011.[8

We can only say "well done" !

It is clear to me that the CGT is already a legend, and even with a "subtancial" amount of cars produced, the CGT will be a member of of the top club of cars to collect and keep. In the past, we have seen cars like the F. GTO, or later, like the McLaren F1, etc..
In my opinion, I have just no doubt that the CGT belongs to this type of breed !
Or simply, in the "analysts language" : a strong buy !

It make me think of a good friend of mine, that ..accumulated Six Dino 246 some years ago, when they were "cheap", and now, four of these are here:
www.carugati.ch
..Yes, he is also an official Pagani dealer ! (not very well known here, but, imo, this is just a question of time !)
The F-cars specialists (I do not know if any are reading around here ?) may notice that next to these Dino, ..is a 1961 250GT SWB Competizione, ..that is a car that you do not see very often, the least we can say !
..but, he has no CGT !

I noticed and agree the Dino went to insanity but the CGT has picked up quite a bit since the accident.

Curious - what is the premium for an 04 vs 05 along with how much more is red worth vs black then silver.

Is it safe to say the 05 carries a 25k vs 04 and black and red carry another 25k premium?

Don't forget yellow :)

Assume yellow and red are about the same - perhaps a slight premium. I keep looking at the Sandy CGT and wondering for 100 - 125k to repair if that's not the best option.

The 7000 mile silver 04 on e-bay has a deposit at 360 29.5 reading on the clutch.

I think a lot more are going to appear once the 918's start showing up.

After a lot of research I am finding very very few are actually well maintained.

I think a low mile around 3k miles is worth 4 and will most likely require another 35 -50k to be brought up to what they should represent.

As I stated it seems they are starting to roll into dealers due to 918's showing up.

These are serious cars that need to be well maintained and anything less is stupidity given what we all know what can happen when they are not.

It appears these things are listed anywhere from $350-500k

What was the MSRP?

$440,000

thx.

Nice combo you have in your collection!

So, was there ever a low point to the resale of the CGT? Or did the low mile examples always hover around MSRP?

I have looked twice at low mileage CGT's - in 2011 & 2013 they were around 325 - 350.

The first time I chose the 16M second the MP4.

Making any progress in your quest to purchase?

DJ

CGT prices have had an interesting history.

When first introduced, many who ordered tried to cancel as stories began to proliferate that the car was undrivable owing to the clutch. The early '04 cars did have a trickier clutch, but the software was soon updated. In fact, Ben tried to cancel his order and was denied.

Many dealers and flippers were stuck with new cars they couldn't give away. In late '04 and throughout '05, you could get a brand new car for low to mid 300's.

Shortly after that, prices began to rise as folks realized what an amazing car it was.

Prices took a slight dip in '08 -'09, and have risen steadily since then.

thx for that .
that is the kind history i love read on rare cars.

One step forward two steps back - it's been a roller coaster ride.

Great post and interesting information. Thank you for getting the thread back on track about CGT prices.

There are quite a few ones on ebay and DuPont registry if you like black or silver.

I'd make one addition to the history above. There may have been a few who tried to cancel because of the clutch, but the vast majority of the over-supply problem in 2005 was due to a regulatory gamble that was lost by Porsche and how Porsche decided to "fix" the problem.

Model Year 2006 cars were subject to a rule change concerning air bag technology. Porsche applied for a wavier to exempt the Carrera GT because of its low production volume, etc. and the need to re-crash-test samples of the CGT configured with the new technology air bag system. NHTSA or DOT or whomever wasn't buying the Porsche gambit and refused to issue a wavier. MY 2006 CGT's would have to meet the new rule or be excluded from importation.

Porsche then "fixed" the problem by moving all of MY2006 CGT USA production into MY2005. This slipped all of the planned cars into the country under the old rule without requiring re-design and re-testing. However, this decision forced TWICE as many (2005 + 2006) cars as called for by the marketing plan into MY 2005. This glut of cars that PCNA had never intended to sell in only one year began to appear on dealer lots without prospective buyers. CGT demand had been fished out for the time being and the glut forced down prices as PCNA tried to get rid of the excess inventory.

I attended an all-expenses-paid driving event at Barber Motorsports Park in the Spring of 2005 hosted by PCNA designed to jump-start demand for the CGT. It was called the "Carrera GT Driving Experience" and paired CGT owners with qualified prospects to generate some exciting track time and overall good feelings about the car. I had a good time and so did my qualified prospect (Larry Schumacher - haha), but I'm not sure the event moved the needle of demand as much as PCNA had hoped.

It took a long while to burn off the excess CGT inventory. Right when things looked especially bleak, the international currency markets began to move in a direction that made USA CGT prices extremely attractive to Euro-paying customers. Some number of the lingering CGT's were purchased with Euros and transported back to Porsche AG to have European safety requirements retrofitted for European use. The USA-to-Europe inventory flow finally dried up the excess supply here and prices began "rationalizing" toward equilibrium levels.

OK, maybe I'm long-winded but I thought the record needed adjusting :D

P.S. The doubling of MY 2005 production for the USA made it difficult to deliver any ROW CGT's that year. MY2004 and MY2006 are seen throughout the world but few MY2005 CGT's are seen outside of USA/Canada. No MY2006 CGT was ever sold new in the USA.

Another anecdote I believe to be true...when I purchased my 2006 Cayman S in October of 2006, my local dealer still had at least one 2005 CGT in stock. Talk was that there was around 70 of them still at US dealers, as noted above, way too many to move quickly. Porsche first offered some dealer incentives aka trunk money to move some units, then from what I heard, the last 30 or so were bought back by the factory, sent back for retrofit to RHD, and sold in the UK market where there was still demand. I've been told this story by several longtime dealer types here, assume it's true.

Sorry, but all CGTs have the steering wheel on the left.

Many of those are sold - the listings remain in hopes to hook a potential buyer so the dealer can call "sitting on the fence 918 buyers" that have CGT's to get them to make a deposit.

Learned a lot after missing out on a members car here car who decided to keep it and recently passed on a red 05 then a black 04. The black 04 was due to me believing the 05's are worth more which who knows but more important who cares.

Three have slipped thru my hands - strange as the last 4 cars I have bought were all sight unseen and bought the moment I saw them on the internet one is a members here old 16M that traded it for a CGT :( and told me years ago to buy one.

Anyway - 3k mile cars wholesale right around 400k add 7% if the dealer gets involved and one can take it from there. A good service is 30k and would suggest adding that to the equation.

I have no idea if a CGT will hold at a 450k car - at 350 they were a great deal.

What was the deal with the red '05? I would be interested in that one. Is it still for sale? If so, what is the asking price?

A good engine out service, and a clutch change, tires = 30k. Otherwise an oil change, brake check, and new tires throughout the years is no big deal for what your getting out of these things. Nothing else is really needed if you treat it right.

Engine outs don't need to be done as much as people think IMHO. BUT doing it to check the inners for leaks is a great idea prob once a decade. Detail it also while your in there.

After talking to many CGT mechanics working on these cars around the country some say a valve that is a bit loose is a happy valve. To tight after the engine is broken in may be bad afterall. Adjust them on mileage only some say. Two sides to all coins I guess.

All cars need a few things looked at before purchasing. PPI checking the ecu for excessive overrevs, a few is normal and fine the engine is robust and trust me you will miss the rev limiter at one point. If not you may not be doing it right hahaha. JK. Check the clutch thickness, and this can be done on a lift through a small hole in the underbelly. Demand to see it measured if you feel compelled.

I have a very early car. In 10 years people will be like why did I pass on an 04??? Clutch engagement is perfect, stuff of myths, prob to sell some 05 cars maybe in the day?????

If you find an 04 just see if the Campaigns are all done, if not they really are easy little fixes sans the tranny ring which can be done during engine out check ups of your cars innards. My ring has not been done yet and I am on the original clutch. BTW, the guy who owns the blue XP4 McLaren F1 owned my car first. They slept in the same room!!!

When buying any CGT check on tire build dates and the last oil change. Make sure the brakes and rotors are good as well without cracks. If they haven't been cooked hard they should be just fine for road duty at any speed for a long long time.

IDK $450k all in still seems like a deal to me. MSRP+ sales tax= More than current values. But I hope they stay this way for a few more years so I can grab a second.....

Dont hesitate on a car, get a small deposit on it to hold it and fly to see it. Stay there and get it on a lift and check all these things in a matter of hours with a dealership. You will more or less know what your getting into at that point. No car will be perfect but you can get them pretty close knowing what you start with.

This is a high level of Porsche engineering soooooo yeah it should work well with little maintenance. A CGT is like your personal race car and you should treat it as such. Its freaking epic.

My old college roommate owns a Porsche dealer - it never hit the market til I passed ... it's sold was / is listed on cars.com asking 450 3500 miles.

Was this the one in Kentucky?

Yes.

I have the original papers from the car when it was purchased new in 2004. The first owner paid a $55k mark up on the car. He probably lost 150k cash on it when he resold it later on. If only had he held on to it until now, he would have driven the car for free for 10 years.

Can you imagine buying one now or a few years ago and waiting another ten years to get PAID to drive a cgt?????????

I can :thumbsup:

That would be in nominal Dollars, not accounting for the time value of money ;)

I stand corrected, I've been hearing my above rumor so long I accepted it as gospel. I do suspect there's some truth to around 30 of the original US cars going back to the continent after failing to sell new here.

7% compounded annually over 10 years doubles your money. 7% is great. If you can get into a CGT perfect maintenance just completed and zoup to nuts taxes ect at 450K whos not to say that the car isnt worth 850-950k in another 10 years? Storage, oil, tires should do it JUST fine over the years. Figure 20k-25k tops in maintenance over ten years if you dont beat on it and another 10k+ in insurance. So if you spend 500k on the car over 10 years and it gets to 900k then that's like 6% compounded over the term of ownership, not terrible. Heck its hard to buy A rated corporate debt with those yields......... At least I know how to manage a car while your betting some third party doesn't ruin a company you invest in. Diversity is also important. Thats how I look at it, I believe these will be considered one of the greatest automobile achievements ever. The company is in the same company as F50 and Mclaren F1's. Good thing they made 1200 CGT's but that wont keep prices down forever. Look at how many Benz SL gullwings and roadsters there are. And they hold in the $1.5m and you can find one any day of the week in perfect condition. I consider the CGT the next 300SL.

Just a descent place to put a few bucks and have fun, a blue chip car. CGT's are still cheaper in the USA than everywhere else on planet earth. Just a thought.....

I will just keep mine as perfect as possible and enjoy it probably for more than ten years. They are just awesome to have around.

If I could afford one, I would've already bought one. Under-priced imo.

Yeah, no worries -- I think a right hand drive version may have driven up prices more because the UK market is a pretty rich car buyer's market. I have driven LHD in the UK and it's okay, but not ideal. The BMW Z8 is also only LHD.

The time value of money for me is negative. I could write a book "How and When NOT to invest" :)

CGT

Ill snap a shot of my rear window and the blue tint. I also think its lexan and not glass.

Sorry to get off topic..Did you buy another 16M? I've been thinking of getting another, it would be my third. Talk about the negative time value of money..:burnout:

Yup.

how is the market on the 16m these days? holding strong or depreciated to the point of good deals?

^230k ish, was just looking, a better deal than a 200k 997 speedster for sure.

Unless it's white. Those seem to be outrageously priced.

What keeps prices down vs up is simply collector CGT's vs driver CGT's.

Collectors hit 500k at dealers but let's not forget the Yellow with 1500 or so miles that went for 430k regardless daily drivers can be bought in the very low 3's.

E-bay had a 7,000 mile fresh service 365 and currently a good CGT with 24k miles is 349 asking and that's at a Porsche dealer so the owner may net 300k.

200k difference means if you drive a a CGT there is a lot of downside.

300SL restorations can run very large in terms of dollars.

As far as the 16M - values are 225 - 275 depending on miles and extra's

My 16M / Eric's old 16M had a list 0f 356k Grigio Ferro some were even higher.

Anyway the 16M and CGT for me - represent the two best worlds of driver interactions. My 360C race car is for when things get serious but for the spirited weekend drivers the CGT / 16M is a very nice combo.

Depends on miles luggage condition.

A 1700 mile clean one with a list of 345 recently sold for 290k.

Yeah the CGT's with low Mileage go for much more, but that ruins the fun.

7k miles on a car really is brand new still. Its porsche engineering. This car was made to do 100K miles no problems. I dont get all the fuss if the car is complete srvice is done and luggage is all there.

But point being, in another decade the miles thing will matter less and less. Just to have a car will be the priority in my view.

The reason why they should be valuable is the way they drive. So why buy one if your not?? Please let someone else have a go and dont bother is what I have to say to them.

Its like marrying a sexually charged supermodel and not laying into her ever. Well good job dude.

Excellent point. For comparison purposes, look at the Ferraris Daytonas and Lamborghini Miuras. The value is mostly dictated by the condition of the car and not so much the mileage.

BTW..... Could you give us an example of a sexually charged supermodel?:p

Interesting points about drivers' vs collectors' cars. I do wonder when the "mileage" stigma on values washes out, as in the Gullwings, McLaren F1's, etc. There must be some logarithmic curve people have studied on values of "collectible" cars over time. I have Eric's old white 16M, bought it with just over 10k miles 8 mos ago. It now has 15k miles. I bought my CGT with 5.5k miles on it 6 mos ago and it now has 7.3k miles on it. I just can't help driving these cars. The value of driving them...........priceless!!! The 16M market is all over the place, as mentioned 225-275k. Very mileage sensitive at this point in time because it's an 09 car. The CGT is now around 10 yrs old so it seems the "mileage" stigma is not as sensitive. See you guys at Festival of Speed today...will be in my CGT doing parade laps!
(Will try not to spin it like Leno at Talladega :) )

Have fun on that parade lap. I got to do 142 mph in my Ruf btr.

Awesome! What color is your Ruf?
Were you there sat or sun?
Was fun today at the event!

I think two things make the value of the F1 what it is...first off, sheer numbers, a car that was meant to have a run of 300 turned out to be only 64, not including the rest of the 106 total with GTR's and variations.
Secondly, the car is still fully supported by the factory 20 years later. Their MSO group can affect any changes your wallet will allow, some of them have had total transformations in color and interior and adding the HDF kit. If you want to actually drive your F1 (and there's more than a few owners who do) the factory will still service the car, etc.
Whatever it does in dollar value, I hope the time comes when CGT owners will be less concerned about mileage and more about using the great car that Porsche unleashed.

Last night was passover - family was over.

This morning at 8 a.m. was made aware a CGT was local for sale at a high end dealer.

375k asking 05 Silv / Blk 6500 miles. 9 out of 10.

Called at 8 - there at 9 with check in hand as I am checking out my CGT and it was extremely nice salesman said it sold last night! :crying::crying:

They dont stick around too long do they..........

Better luck next time my man.

I was there on Saturday. Metallic black 993 ruf btr! Great time.

Wow sorry to hear...it seems that was a pretty good price to allow it to move fast.
Wonder if they could have asked closer to 400k?

It had a few issues but agree it was underpriced - somehow CGT04115's luck came my way as I picked up the phone and called Napleton in Chicago.

Enough was enough ... we made a deal this morning.

Soo ... anyone interested in a Fire Black MP4 307 sticker or 16M Grigio Ferro 355k sticker - need to make some room.

Quick Congrats back!
Which one did you pick up?
Keep the 16M! I did, though it feels like a luxury car compared to the CGT ...

It's the silver / blk listed on the Napleton website.

Salesman was excellent and performed a full PPI after I requested a clutch reading.

Prefer to keep the 16M - wife loves the MP4 but that's not the one listed on
e-bay :)

Congratulations! Get to know the car, find a tunnel, go WOT through it and get ready for a life-changing experience.

Make sure you post pics.

Congrats!! Welcome to the club!!!

Welcome to another dragon rider !

Thanks guys should have it next week.

Doom

You and that limited slip differential forced me to swap the MP4 for the CGT.

Shame on me for not listening to you earlier - impressive work carving the corners on the you tube videos.

Feel free to rip me a new one in a pm ... I deserve now that I am on your turf ... be gentle :)

Nuvolari , I am honoured that I played even a small part in your decision to buy what is in my opinion the greatest usable , reliable Supercar ever . I wish you years of joy . If I can help you in any way please do t hesitate to ask , I'm at your service .

I'd check :
The dampers ( with your fingers , they can leak and this can be hard to spot)
Check you are not on the "plus 10" droplinks
Put her on supersports
Check the geo and away you go !

Once again welcome to the order of the dragon .

It's also interesting to me that mclaren have replaced the 12c with a car that's , more " fun" , "emotional" and " natural feeling on the slide " .

Very interesting - Mclaren should have kept tweaking the MP4 until it offered what the 650 delivers.

Thanks for the heads up - what's geo?

Ok - since this is a pricing thread what original items were included from the factory.

Seat pads - quanity ___
Luggage - how many pieces ___
Special books - owners manual ___
Any trinkets?

When I bought my 16M from E-man who traded it for a CGT - luggage Bronze 16M Alcantara book were all missing. After a year and 8k I now have what was included from the factory - lots of dealers have sticky fingers. Eric btw keeping that sweet 16M :)

Can you guys fill in the blanks and or what I missed - Thanks!

Congrats Nuvolari. Welcome!

Here's a useful link:
http://www.suncoastparts.com/category/cgt.html

Seat pads - quantity ___4 (incl. the 2 in the car)

Luggage - how many pieces ___ 7 (including the door pouches). Apparently some were 5-piece but I'm not sure about that.

Special books - owners manual ___ The regular from Porsche. There is also a neat Service Information book (A4 size & ring-bound).

Any trinkets? Not sure.

The car cover is neat. There is a CD for the nav system if your car has one.

I had mine out today. It never disappoints.

That is purely marketing hype IMO. the 650S is an excellent car but at the end of the day it's still a 12C, albeit improved. The underlying character of the car has not changed, although without tracking the car perhaps the new software makes the car more natural feeling at the limt. The 650 has gained more torque/grip and precision at front axle but in all honesty I can't see how it's gained 'fun' and 'emotion' per factory claims. It will not offer the same intensity of focus and engagement the gt3 rs/cgt have but to be fair it was never meant to be that kind of car either.

nuvolari - glad you have changed your opinion about the cgt per what you had posted previously on the mclife forum about cars being damanged when used...... Congrats on the car, there is very little else quite like it today and quite possibly that will ever be made again.

Congrats on the purchase of the CGT Nuvolari612! Also great choice on keeping the 16M, my father has one also and I don't think he will ever sell it, such a thrilling car to drive. See you're in the midwest, not by chance in Michigan? Would be nice to see a few more CGT's on the roads here!

Triple Black - Ty will try out the cf gear shift.

ISV Thanks - check that thread again and my join date here willing to bet it says a CGT will be in the garage ... it was just a matter of feeling comfortable with myself and son's capabilities to handle the CGT. My skills are far better and he is on his way to racing school.

Envy - Thanks in St Louis. Earlier you posted about your Dad's red cgt. The red CGT in Louisville I went back and forth on for over three weeks - owners son also lives in Detroit. Turns out there are two red CGT's sons in Detroit. :)

Pricing - collectors are a 20% premium and many CGT's have left the US daily driver prices will soon be 5's.

The Ford GT is 100k over list and the F50 is 1.4 - prices will rise.

Congrats.

Dang prices.

I've likely missed my chance to add a 'driver' CGT.

CONGRATS!

You will be so impressed with this car. Glad that luck rubbed off. You sure are lucky to own one of these things.

I agree :)

Multiple cars are on the list - F50 F40 Dino 512 doubled and tripled.

Two have not - the Ford and CGT up 30%.

There are 700k - 800k CGT's if those sell you will see a whole new price range on CGT's.

All it will take are two guys at the same auction that want instant gratification.

I remember when the Dino popped at an auction - 200k over and it stuck.

This isn't a bubble - simple supply and demand and mileage will mean almost nothing.

Porsche has a chance to look like a hero and help these cars rise in value.

The Super car experience from Mclaren and Ferrari is priceless and very exclusive.

Tell a rich person what they can't have and they will do anything to get it.

Once you get a few of the other cars together in one place to view, it becomes apparent which car shines as the most spectacular. I walk by Enzos' F40 Veyrons ect when there is a CGT close by. Its not even close once you look closely at the fit and finish. All carbon everywhere. It is THE Porsche Masterpiece.

This is the pinnacle of road going machines without a doubt and we wont ever see anything like it again.

Somehow Porsche doesnt carry the Cache of the Rarri but I guarantee the CGT is better in every way shape and form than the others. Congrats and post some pics when it makes it to you.

Watching every CGT video - not that I think of it - are you Tanner Foust? :)

Look forward to starting my own thread - may hook up the trailex and head to Chicago. Bonus would be to catch the Blues Blackhawks game Wed.

Wife is leaving for Germany - perfect for spending time with the new mistress.

24k mile ebay 2005 CGT, $350k buy it now. Whats it worth?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/231205835683?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

One owner - dealer shop performed 15k without the clutch.

They will get close to asking.

this CGT looks great for 24k miles. How much does a 15k service cost and if it was an engine out was curious why they did not replace clutch?

It's not a 15k mileage.

They spent 15k - the car is good as new mechanically but for the clutch.

Replace the clutch later - wear it out and then address it.

These cars are 10 years old.

20 - 30k bills vs depreciation and driving enjoyment sounds more than fair.

ok, I just contacted. engine out 30k service. clutch at 29mm which is 35% left. not sure why they didn't replace clutch while engine was out. There is a deal pending I was told

16,000.00 clutch with 35% = 5600.00 of CGT fun.

The engine out with service is 4k.

One owners don't last long.

Who does engine out for 4k? I just had it done by a reputable dealer as major service and it's far more labor than that ... Didn't change clutch (30mm).

I was quoted from a dealer - 16k clutch 4k engine out service on a 3500 mile car but that's because it seemed to be under serviced.

Prices likely vary on dealer location / shop rates or one part of the job offsets the price of the other.

A shop rate of 125.00 and 30 est. hours to remove and reset the engine with some minor service seems reasonable. That being said I have a lot to learn about Porsche CGT maintenance.

How many miles did you pull the engine at?

There's a silver over terra cotta with 24k miles on it selling for $350k

Yes, it seems to me that the prices on the real cars "That Matter" are for sure rising in valuation. Its like watching the stock market or some index. If you follow the valiations on Hagerty's website - the cars that matter the values are rising. The Entire Market is for sure going up. Some more than others. For example the McLaren F1 had way more than doubled in price the past couple of years. While during the past 6 to 3 month folks with money are for sure putting their money into THE Collector type cars.

Yup, and a Clutch Job on a CGT can run around $25,000. That and the CGT is notoriously known as one of the toughest Clutches to get used too!

I thought about stretching for that car, but in the end most buyers of these type of cars want under 10k mileage. In the end I am going to buy a 4k mile ford gt for $250k.

I ended up buying a 2013 458 Spider for $325K instead of a CGT. I am very happy with the 458 Spider but will consider adding the CGT in the near future.

FWIW my neighbor with the 05 2000 mile CGT still has his (he was going to sell it). He wanted $375K a year ago. By the time I agreed he wanted $400k. Someone recently offered him $400K and now he wants $425K. His is a pristine, one owner collector car.

There are all sorts of prices but right now you can get a:
15,000- 25,000 mile+ car for $330K
6,000-10,000 mile car for $375K
3000-5000 mile car for $400,000
<3,000 mile collector car for $425,000

There is a 4500 mile CGT on eBay asking $545k

Prestige Imports. Notorious for high initial asking prices.

Greed. It's very unattractive. :(

But, s'cool. It's his car. He can do whatever he wants with it, and wait around as long as he can / wants for the right sucker to come around. :)

Cars in NY are over $500K and trading.

Kyle - mind sending me his contact info unless it's a Silver CGT with black wheels cf steering and shifter been there done that and the asking is now 499k.

F40 wasn't worth 250k now 1,250K

Ford wasnt't worth 150k - now 275k

Dino 125k - now 425k

An F1 just sold for 8 digits.

The CGT is worth every penny of an F50 at 1.5m.

For some reason the CGT has lagged but it seems times are changing.

The CGT lags the F50 because there's over 1000 more of them in the US than the F50. :) And it's 10 years younger.

Among other reasons, of course. (Ferrari's still command higher collector premiums than Porsches.)

We should be encouraging sustainable organic value appreciation of our collectibles. The CGT might get to $1.5m eventually, but that's not happening any time soon.

There are over 1000 CGT's in the US?

600 were shipped to the US my guess over 120 have left the US in one way shape or form.

There are supposedly 350 F50's worldwide.

Both have a removable top - tethering the two unlike any other super car.

Agree Ferrari's command more - but the CGT is IMO way under valued.

Err, I meant 500 more. Not 1000 more. :o

As far as I know, around 380 F50's were produced worldwide, so there can't be 350 of them in the US.

As much as I want to believe it, I don't think the CGT is viewed in the same way F50's are viewed by both collectors, and by enthusiasts. :(

Yeah, totally agree. It suffered from depressed values for several years. :(

645. And yeah, a bunch left our shores, not sure if it's 120 or much less than that (I was led to believe it's much less, but still an alarmingly high #).

I suppose it's my patriotic duty to snap up a bunch and keep them here! :rockon:

One dealer has exported over 40 CGT's.

I have literally been following CGT's since the day they arrived in the US.

After a week of ownership - feel the same patriotic duty. :)

F50's - 350 Worldwide no idea how many are in the US but let's assume Ferrari produced closer to 400 worldwide if not more :)

I was very close to buying the botched FBI F50.

Stopped bidding - my concern was the cost of a new tub which Ferrari has unlike Porsche for the CGT. Both have an F1 engine bolted to the drivers buttox - difference is only one sounds like an F1 at WOT.

:grr:

:thumbup: :thumbup:

Yeah, my understanding is it came to ~380 worldwide. But no idea how many in the US now, as you said.

Same. Once upon a time. For the same concerns.

Any idea how many CGTs have been wrecked so far? (world wide).

Totaled or sitting in a museum :)

Guessing 1 - 3 a year over 10 years.

I was told no more engines or tubs will ever be made also the clutch status is send in core to receive one refurbished.

Perhaps someone here actually knows and shares the fun facts of the CGT.

Anyone know where all the CGT's that are leaving the US have gone?

I'm wondering if its one region that didn't get a lot of deliveries when new or is current worldwide demand just higher than in the US?

Piston Heads - 6000 mile CGT 575k asking.

So when people say a certain US broker dealer is over priced in Florida or the coast - it's based on US pricing not world wide. Those broker / dealers are serviving a different market all day long.

The US CGT's for sale in general have lower miles are well documented - yet lower than other places outside the US.

Porsche has always tried to control US dealers from exporting high demand cars - it's usually a broker / dealer the Porsche dealers receive less allocations etc. if they get caught.

I bought a G55 drove it for a year and sold it for more than sticker. It was on e-bay for less than an hour. Received a wire payment and it was picked up 2 days later. No inspection no questions asked easiest sale ever. Export dealers charge more and pay more for certain vehicles to sell outside the US.

CGT's in the US are 15 - 20% below the world wide market - until the US market catches up they will continue to leave the US.

The European cars are more expensive because they have the VAT built into the price. Correct me if I am wrong.

Yes, CGT000, that is generally true and in most EU countries, that is 20%! Cheers

7000 mile CGT ranges from 380 - 425 in the US add 20% for VAT roughly 450 - 500k.

The one I noted in the EU is advertised at 575k which is still 20%+

CGT's are being exported for one reason.

It's very funny watching Top Gears very first review of the F50 when it was brand new, they of course gave it their standard glowing review, ya know the one where Ferrari will allow them to review new cars in the future; oh please purdy please Ferrari keep bringinging'em back with your team of engineers to set up the car oh so perfectly.

Then on a more recent show Top Gear went back and reviewed a few cars to see how well the had aged, Clarkson tore the F50 a "New One" if you know what I mean. In comparison to other Ferraris just previous of the F50s vintage and of the F50s - he didn't like it one bit.

Wish I could find both Video's on Youtube so we can see the before then after vids.

Ferrari is the #1 Brand so you can't blame them and Ferrari 99% of the time only produces with a customers name.

Whereas Mclaren filled the showrooms and warehouse with inventory killing residual - a big reason I no longer own a MP4.

Porsche did the same thing with the CGT - tell a wealthy person what they can't have and they will do anything to get it.

Show them that anyone can walk in off the street and have what they have - the allure is gone.

Porsche learned from the CGT - 918 has to have a sold tag prior to production.

In other words - which is crazy at this level marketing still drives the value. The CGT is now in the spotlight as the F40 F50 are now 7 digits.

Once owners to be buyers realize there is nothing close they will become scarce.

Wouldn't take what Clarkson says seriously. Entertaining yes, serious absolutely not.

Sadly I have never got near the controls of a F50 but everyone I have spoken to who has raves about the car and most are adamant it is a far superior car to drive than the F40. For what it's worth I believe Evo had the F50 come up tops in their Ferrari supercar group test some time ago.

Yea, this was something on Top Gear of a "Second Look", retrospective if you would. And Clarkson is a total Yarbo or however the English spell that word - Yarbo, Yarbow, Yarbough?

They made so little of the F50s I thought for the longest time that the Enzo should have been the official F50.

And funny thing too is the F50 will never sell for F40 money.

But heh I got this smashing deal on a McLaren MP4-12C... who doesn't right?

Wanting some help. What do you think happens with CGT prices over the next 5 years. Lets assume I only put about 2-4K miles on per year. Just trying to get a better understanding of the CGT as a fun/investment car.

I don't mean any offense, but if someone had the ability to predict that, they really should be using those abilities to time the stock market, and get rich'er. :)

If you want to enjoy the car, buy it, enjoy it, derive as much pleasure (intrinsic value) as you can out of it. And whatever happens in 5 years, happens.

Its going nowhere but up.

So far.

Everyone said that before values dropped in 2007/2008, as well. :)

I hope our cars continue to appreciate organically. But, predicting based on past performance is a fool's errand.

Just to throw out some more semi-related data....last week it made the news that an F1 was sold in the UK for $10.5M. Broker and article claimed it was a record for a road car version.
Not so fast says other more inside sources. Two road cars sold for around $12K last year but through private sources so prices were not announced. The big daddy though was LM2 being sold by its original owner. The LM roadgoing edition was built in commemoration of the F1 GTR's that dominated the 1995 LeMans 24 hour race. There was one prototype that's still in McLaren's hands, then five more built for the five cars in the race. 3 of them were sent to the Sultan of Brunei's collection and have never been seen again, and likely never will be. LM3 was sold a couple of times before Ralph Lauren bought it, it likely won't be sold again.
So when the Japanese collector who owned LM2 since new decided to sell, he worked with McLaren and it was offered to a number of F1 owners first in a kind of informal auction. Unofficially, it traded hands somewhere between $16-19M!

...

from what I understand the CGT is not a car you take out to the grocery store or around town. But it would be a fun car to drive on the weekends on an open road

Think of it as a reward for you vs the next guy.

A little fender bender can whack a low mileage CGT's value.

There is is 24k cgt for sale owner drove 2k a year and it's worth 150k less than 3k mile CGT - once the low mileage ones become scarce 20k+ CGT's will be the norm.

Here is a summation of the Clarkson review.

His main Gripe about the F 50 is that it was suppose to use an actual F1 V12, but in order to make it livable Ferrari needed to turn the V12 down from 11, Spinal Tap reference, to where a regular Joe wouldn't kill themselves. That and the engine is directly bolted onto the frame of the car so you feel every little revolution on an RPM.

Remember it's him, not me. I've only opened the door of an F 50 to take a look.

Does anyone know what happened to a white California CGT that was available a few months ago ? Does anyone know where one may be available in that color ? Thanks

Was that the one being sold in TX? Had around 3k miles? Think it was PTS
I believe they were asking well north of $500k - this was over 6 mos ago. I'm not sure if/who bought it.

It was for sale by Porsche of Rancho Mirage and I believe they were asking $550k for it. Car had 4k miles on it with all services performed.

Thanks. That is the one. I spoke to them today and it sold two weeks ago in the $530k range. The car was Sand White and one of only a half dozen in white supposedly.

There were more than 25 white ones built by Porsche. Good luck on your hunt.

Thanks. If anyone knows of a clean, low mileage white car for sale, please let me know.

Best of luck...white is so rare but beautiful

http://www.dupontregistry.com/autos/...itemid=2237312

Orange metallic CGT with 256 miles asking $950,000 !!

6 or so is my understanding.

Can you share where you heard this?

One of your more notable Porsche collectors in HOU has a white/dark grey one. Last time I saw it the interior was still in the wrapper. When I was looking for mine, I called about it because white was my first choice and he asked a $200k-ish premium above market for it being white.

Carreragtregistry.com

Out of 1270 cars, 581 have been registered with this site. Out of the 581, there are 13 Carrera Whites, 1 Sand White, 1 Grand Prix White.

I remember this car being for sale back in 2009. Asking price then was just north of $500k. I know the color is rare and might command a premium but damn......

I'm not in love with that color!! White would be a premium color for me, not this!

"The car is as NEW, I have NEVER driven the car. I start and run the car once a week. The car is exactly as it was the day it rolled off the assembly line."

Ok what fun is that?!?
Anyone suspect any issues with the car not being driven for near 10 years?
And the CGT is painted a Lambo color.....hmmmm

I love Orange, but I'd be more impressed if it was a classic Porsche color, instead of a Lamborghini color.

Not worth $950k to me. Not even close. But good luck to them on the sale!

Is there any other car at this level that the color paint commands a 5% premium let alone 100%.

There is or was when I was in the market - a Rossa CGT 1000 miles 700k asking.

Good luck to the seller - whatever this car sells at it will cause the CGT market to increase.

I considered the white one - very nice CGT but I refused to pay a 20%+ premium for a standard paint finish when the Silver / Blk looks so good!

Anyway - sitting in it starting it ... that was funny!

:thumbup:

Bentley Newport Beach 479k 8000 black / black.

Wow, over 8100 miles and asking above MSRP.
I'm at 7600 miles and didn't think it was going up that high yet.

I want to know exactly how many minutes he's sat in the seat while it's idling in his garage? Could be up to 5k miles? Car's worthless. ;)

Eddie, how was your timing with buying a CGT? Not bad huh? :)

And 7,600 miles is all you have now? How do you not drive it more?? I drive mine like its a Chevy. Hahaha...

Another low mileage CGT. This one has 38 miles on it !!!! How the hell can a 9 year old car have only 38 miles. Has this thing ever seen the day lights????

http://www.dupontregistry.com/autos/...itemid=2242787

I think he even flat bed it for it's yearly service. Or it was never serviced for the whole 9 years.

Does the price include a set of new tires, or will you have to pay extra for those?

I know I should be punished for not giving it more love...

Tires belts you name it - wouldn't trust any car that sat for a decade which would lead to a very expensive visit to the shop.

38 miles - seems a lot easier and cheaper to buy a 1/18 die cast car and play some CGT exhaust notes from a boom box.

No idea about other states but in mine property tax would have accrued to over 50k and another 45k for sales tax.

New high!

Aranacio Borealis CGT 950k on e-bay.

An unregistered CGT sold for over a million a year or so ago. It was outside the US / EU. Unfortunately I'm not at liberty to disclose where.

Discussed elsewhere, I can't remember where. Absolutely absurd. ;)

It's not even a classic Porsche color.

Was this a US model car? What color?

Non-US. Black. It sold as new (unregistered) in a very thin market for CGT's.

I had a buddy that just passed away that had a 2004 CGT that has never been driven. I believe the family still owns it. Still has the plastic on the seats and steering wheel, along with the protective tape and film on all of the inside bits and pieces. He also had a first-year GT3 and a first-gen GT3-RS that were in similar boats - window stickers still glued to the windows.

Time capsules are out there, many of them in private collections unbeknownst to the rest of the world.

It was just listed on e-bay.

I prefer Silver and would have paid a premium - easy to care for and timeless. The paint premium on a 10 yr old super car makes little sense - at least to me.

Eventually if they don't already Porsche will offer some sort of classique program re-setting the odo to zero in theory.

This one got sold on Monday to a dealer. Full ask!!!

Interesting.

I just found one of those needle in the haystack for my taste.

Would have to sell mine ... insanity :)

How can anyone own these cars and drive them so little? So bizarre to me.

Are you talking about the silver with custom interior on ebay? Not crazy about the interior color. Silver/black much nicer.

Yes - friend is looking for a CGT - passed it along as he is moving back to the US and on the hunt.

Silver for me is #1 - think it''s a cool car you are probably right ... but ... I am seriously considering grabbing it.

Have two of them...... One for the road and one for the garage/living room.

Nuvolari / Cuio spec of my 612 - have a soft spot it's tough to photograph Cuio.

:thumbup:

What do you guys think a clean 15k mile, recently serviced 2005 CGT is worth ? I'm waiting on clutch measurements.

Silver?

a year ago I would have offered $300k. Today, who knows...

I would guess, and only a guess, if it checks out on a thorough PPI (not just clutch inspection), and it has been routinely serviced properly, probably $375K +/-. If no recent full service, plan on a $20-30k service bill.

Was it a minor service (fluid, filters, plugs etc), or major engine-out 4-yr/mileage-based service with valve check/adjustment etc? When I was looking at one CGT candidate the recent service was 2 years prior and was fluids, filters, plugs etc versus the more costly major. Not that it's a big deal, but you may want the major done for your own peace of mind ($15-20K on top of a new clutch).

At today's prices, it would be a surprise to see a genuinely clean 15K miles, no-stories, fully serviced, GT Silver over Ascot go for less than $350-395K. Speculating: we may well see $500K for 10K+ mileage cars in the near future (ceteris paribus the markets).

It would sell fast at 375 even if it required 25k.

Only concern would be paint / body.

2012 - 2's
2013 - 3's
2014 - 4's

If CGT's stay in the 4's many will leave the US. Once the collectors gather the low mileage investment cars mileage will mean almost nothing.

The only things left to negotiate - service and condition.

For very well built cars like the CGT and Ford GT, I personally think mileage is less important than 'proper' service, history and condition. I would sooner have a 15k mile car, that had a known no stories history and proper service done by experts, than a low mileage car with unknown history and minimal prior service.

$399k would be a deal at 15k miles:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/231229800490?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

Bid up to $365k on a car with 24k miles.
Interested to see if a sale went through.

From what I can determine, the car has been routinely serviced but a major full service has not been performed. It seems that a full service requirement coupled with a marginal clutch are collectively a $50,000 problem.

Any other areas to be aware of besides clutch, service status, radiators, damage history, tires, rear wing ?

Check out Bentley of Long Island. They might have a 10k mile silver one for $398k

Thanks. Will do.

The car I was chasing turned out to be too rough. It was the color I am looking for (white), but was close to ready for a clutch (29mm), engine out service, new windshield, new battery etc. I may have to start looking at black too, but am unmoved by the 2k-5k mile black cars a few dealers have that are asking $500k plus.

Any good leads would be appreciated. Thanks.

$50,000 for an engine out service and new clutch? Not even close.

What has it been, on average, these days?

Clutch 16k

Engine 4k

Tires 2500

Oh, yes, yes, indeed. That's what I thought it was these days. But the following comment made it sound like it was more than $50k total:

$30k to $40k is what I was expecting.

White is rare so it might make sense to buy it and get it taken care of. There is a white one out there which had a pretty bad accident on the right side. It was repaired without information appearing on car fax so be careful.

Green Lantern is about right. The dealer gave me the following after inspecting the car:

Major service (engine out with valve adjustment) : $13,500 parts and labor
Replace Clutch: $15,600 parts only

So $31,000 before any clutch labor and other miscellaneous. Windshield replace $5,100 (obscene). Then I would inevitably replace the battery, etc.

I seriously doubt I could escape for under 40 grand to do the above.

I cant help but get the feeling that some of the prices are being aggressively evaluated collectively by some of the dealers. I recall back in the late 80's, one wheeler dealer, ran the prices up on 25 Anniversary Countaches, only to have the whole market come down on him and others. It took a while for him to recover and now I see he is back in business again. Wheew, new crop of sheep for him?
I have called several dealers on their cars and they are staying pretty close to ask. They also are trying to get me to finance the purchase. So I am wondering how many are being purchased outright or financed. 20 years ago, when the market corrected, it was swift and brutal. Bubble? I cant say, but it sure feels like it and most of the players are at the table again.
Having said all that, I am still in and I'd much rather buy a CGT from someone on here. So, if anyone has a good lead, it'll be greatly appreciated.

I think everyone here knows all too well what they have.

The CGT has a long way to go before it hits 918 territory - my guess is people may look back and wonder why they swapped for a hybrid.

It will be interesting to see the delta between the CGT and the 918 a year from now. The CGT's have made a big jump in the last couple of years.

My feeling is that 'real' numbers for the 918 will come down and CGT will continue to rise.

2004 silver with 700 miles asking $570k at Marshal Goldman. Seems prices are still on the rise.

I'm with you on that. I don't think the 918 will ever be a cheap car, but I don't believe they will be selling at MSRP ten years down the road.
The CGT has every right to be a million dollar car in the near future.

Hybrid / Turbo technology is very close to becoming the norm.

The 458 is getting a turbo and 6 cylinder engine.

The NA 10 cylinder CGT is a needle in the haystack - prices will rise.

F1 teams despise turbo technology - especially the sound.

+1.

Definitely in a bubble but don't think the majority of cars like this (4th / 5th cars > $250k ) are being financed and that if (when) it bursts that it'll be like the 80's as most will therefore not be looking to offload at the first sign of trouble.

I think in 10 years we'll look back and think wow a CGT for $500k...when they're nearing the mil.

End of the day screw the value, drive the thing because there's one certainty - we aren't taking it with us at the end of our time here!

+1...
Value up or down, I really don't care. If it rises well then I got a double bonus. I find myself very fortunate to be driving mine.

Data point: 2005 silver, black. 4125 miles. Needs clutch and major, minor. Sold $435 CAD.

I tried to buy it, they sold it as I was negotiating with them.

Which dealer?

CGT in good shape below 450k regardless of major clutch has a list of buyers.

Surprised the black one on e-bay is still around 8100 miles 479k told it had a fresh clutch and major.

There is or was a silver 2005 CGT at the dealer in London Ont. Canada asking $400 Cdn. It was there last week and had about 4000 miles. It still shows on their search page. Not in my league so I don,t know many other details I was there picking up some gaskets for my 993.

Two silver CGT's in Canada with the same miles?

Interior is different seems odd that one is priced so much lower.

The one in London has an orange interior. It is a US car from Michigan I believe. I thought they were asking $470 when I saw it but the website says $400. Maybe the $400 is US and $470 is Cdn $

Would any of you CGT owners sell for a 918?

Toying with it. I don't need to sell to afford a 918 but I think my wife would freak if I signed up for another outrageously expensive car (have a P1 coming in November).

Sorry, meant terra cotta. Same car.

There is a 2004 basalt black with 6000 miles for sale by Sloan cars in Connecticut. Not sure of the price.

Nope and my wife was pushing me to order the P1.

1M is beyond my comfort level for a car - few years from now that may change.

Regardless - decided to go backwards vs forward not a fan of the new gear boxes or turbo's.

Wonder if Ferrari has already drawn up the list of potential buyers that they will allow to buy their LaFerrari yet? It's not like they will just allow anyone with the money to buy one to own one!

The list was made years ago. It's not 'potential buyers' it's comprised of actual buyers. I can't imagine more than a handful of those on the list actually turned down the car.

Read somewhere that you need to have purchased 5 previous Ferrari's to be even eligible to purchase the LaFerrari.

Who knows. :biggulp:

Well for once I can see more than a hand full of folks on this list not buying in on the this car. The styling is too Spaceship ad avant garde, wasn't even penned by Pinin Farina.

When you look at it some get the "is it coming or going" effect!

Ferrari of LI just sold 1800 mile Black to a guy in California for $500k

2 + 2 = member in Cali just announced a recent purchase.

The 5's are going to be the old 4's - 6's before summer ends?

If we all hold on to our cars their value will rise fairly quickly. Supply and demand

The orange car has a bid of $526k on ebay.

Any idea what the reserve is?

Will never understand the higher price over what what the factory charged.

It's the same guy using a different color - at least Ferrari sends the car to a outside vendor and the paint is 10x better than factory.

It is more about the mileage than the color. FYI, there is another 330 miles pearl white out there who has turned down $725k. It seems that collectors are looking for sub 1000 mile examples and are willing to pay a lot for them.

That was the car I was going to buy until I found out there is ANOTHER CGT, a Canadian car, that can be had.

Both cars needed major services, new clutches and new tires.

Was set to buy the other one but that morning I walked into Ferrari and came out with a Speciale instead. Someone cancelled the 1st one in town and cannot resist.

Second time I passed over a CGT, 1st time was last year when I ordered a 918 instead.

Craziness!

I was offered a Rossa Red few hundred miles 650k and a 1200 mile 2004 Blk / Blk fresh service for 450k right before i bought one.