Yellowing Carbon Fiber
08-31-2007, 12:48 AM
#166
@VRAlex: is this your ex-beast?
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/2005-...QQcmdZViewItem
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/2005-...QQcmdZViewItem
Greg A
08-31-2007, 07:46 PM
#169
Originally Posted by Alexander Stemer
Mars,
As you may have gathered, I tend toward hyperbole. But, CF is a suboptimal material for street cars for the following reasons:
1. It shatters, resulting in small impacts becoming huge repairs
2. It doesn't lend itself to repair- send it back to Germany for disassembly, bake oven, reassembly etc
3. Few can work on it
4. It is so early in development that it is expensive, and in short supply (yes, I know "many years, space capsules etc, but look at reality)
5. The weight saving for a street car is not substantial- look at the corvette
6. Right now you know everything good about it, but it will take 10 years to find out everything bad
In summary, ridiculous choice for a street car. The yellowing is of no consequence. If I had one, it wouldn't bother me at all. But knowing that some idiots' 1 second lapse in a parking lot could cost $125,000, that bothers me alot. AS
I have over 100,000 ocean sailing miles on composite racing sailboats and almost 30 years around building them. Most of my miles are from sailing up wind in a hull shape that was designed for downwind sailing. Sailing flat bottom boat up wind in the ocean in a breeze with maximum load on the rig pounding in a seaway 1,500 miles from land is asking for forgiviness from the carbon fiber. After 5 years and still the same flogging of the boat and thousands of sea miles later
(with no yellowing of the clear coating) I can say I know what I am doing. I have rebuilt a CGT that was totaled with 100% sucess , have even offered on this thread to repair any carbon related problems but I must say I really get tired of other people that have to offer incorrect information that complicates the problem further. Carbon Fiber is here to stay you idiots...
Mars,
As you may have gathered, I tend toward hyperbole. But, CF is a suboptimal material for street cars for the following reasons:
1. It shatters, resulting in small impacts becoming huge repairs
2. It doesn't lend itself to repair- send it back to Germany for disassembly, bake oven, reassembly etc
3. Few can work on it
4. It is so early in development that it is expensive, and in short supply (yes, I know "many years, space capsules etc, but look at reality)
5. The weight saving for a street car is not substantial- look at the corvette
6. Right now you know everything good about it, but it will take 10 years to find out everything bad
In summary, ridiculous choice for a street car. The yellowing is of no consequence. If I had one, it wouldn't bother me at all. But knowing that some idiots' 1 second lapse in a parking lot could cost $125,000, that bothers me alot. AS
I have over 100,000 ocean sailing miles on composite racing sailboats and almost 30 years around building them. Most of my miles are from sailing up wind in a hull shape that was designed for downwind sailing. Sailing flat bottom boat up wind in the ocean in a breeze with maximum load on the rig pounding in a seaway 1,500 miles from land is asking for forgiviness from the carbon fiber. After 5 years and still the same flogging of the boat and thousands of sea miles later
(with no yellowing of the clear coating) I can say I know what I am doing. I have rebuilt a CGT that was totaled with 100% sucess , have even offered on this thread to repair any carbon related problems but I must say I really get tired of other people that have to offer incorrect information that complicates the problem further. Carbon Fiber is here to stay you idiots...
08-31-2007, 07:56 PM
#170
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Originally Posted by Alexander Stemer
Mars,
As you may have gathered, I tend toward hyperbole. But, CF is a suboptimal material for street cars for the following reasons:
1. It shatters, resulting in small impacts becoming huge repairs
2. It doesn't lend itself to repair- send it back to Germany for disassembly, bake oven, reassembly etc
3. Few can work on it
4. It is so early in development that it is expensive, and in short supply (yes, I know "many years, space capsules etc, but look at reality)
5. The weight saving for a street car is not substantial- look at the corvette
6. Right now you know everything good about it, but it will take 10 years to find out everything bad
In summary, ridiculous choice for a street car. The yellowing is of no consequence. If I had one, it wouldn't bother me at all. But knowing that some idiots' 1 second lapse in a parking lot could cost $125,000, that bothers me alot. AS
I have over 100,000 ocean sailing miles on composite racing sailboats and almost 30 years around building them. Most of my miles are from sailing up wind in a hull shape that was designed for downwind sailing. Sailing flat bottom boat up wind in the ocean in a breeze with maximum load on the rig pounding in a seaway 1,500 miles from land is asking for forgiviness from the carbon fiber. After 5 years and still the same flogging of the boat and thousands of sea miles later
(with no yellowing of the clear coating) I can say I know what I am doing. I have rebuilt a CGT that was totaled with 100% sucess , have even offered on this thread to repair any carbon related problems but I must say I really get tired of other people that have to offer incorrect information that complicates the problem further. Carbon Fiber is here to stay you idiots...
Mars,
As you may have gathered, I tend toward hyperbole. But, CF is a suboptimal material for street cars for the following reasons:
1. It shatters, resulting in small impacts becoming huge repairs
2. It doesn't lend itself to repair- send it back to Germany for disassembly, bake oven, reassembly etc
3. Few can work on it
4. It is so early in development that it is expensive, and in short supply (yes, I know "many years, space capsules etc, but look at reality)
5. The weight saving for a street car is not substantial- look at the corvette
6. Right now you know everything good about it, but it will take 10 years to find out everything bad
In summary, ridiculous choice for a street car. The yellowing is of no consequence. If I had one, it wouldn't bother me at all. But knowing that some idiots' 1 second lapse in a parking lot could cost $125,000, that bothers me alot. AS
I have over 100,000 ocean sailing miles on composite racing sailboats and almost 30 years around building them. Most of my miles are from sailing up wind in a hull shape that was designed for downwind sailing. Sailing flat bottom boat up wind in the ocean in a breeze with maximum load on the rig pounding in a seaway 1,500 miles from land is asking for forgiviness from the carbon fiber. After 5 years and still the same flogging of the boat and thousands of sea miles later
(with no yellowing of the clear coating) I can say I know what I am doing. I have rebuilt a CGT that was totaled with 100% sucess , have even offered on this thread to repair any carbon related problems but I must say I really get tired of other people that have to offer incorrect information that complicates the problem further. Carbon Fiber is here to stay you idiots...
I can just imagine the stress that your boat must go through with maximum load, I don't think a car could ever generate anywhere near the load without hitting something.
08-31-2007, 08:21 PM
#171
Rennlist Member
Well Mars, it is the hitting something that breaks up the carbon fiber. Boats don't seem to do as much smacking into each other as cars.
Don't see much similarity between boats and cars, and admittedly know nothing about boats. I do agree that CF is here to stay, in applications to which it is best suited. Every time I buy a space shuttle, I will be sure to include it in the budget.
You are so close to the right answer that it hurts to watch you thrash. You seem to have so much to be happy about, I can't figure out why you keep at this. Why not just wait, with the absolute asurance of correctness that you seem to possess? Affluence, self-assurance, and arrogance have all come together at this one point (syzygy, I believe) Time will bear out one opinion or the other. I'm ready to wait. AS
Don't see much similarity between boats and cars, and admittedly know nothing about boats. I do agree that CF is here to stay, in applications to which it is best suited. Every time I buy a space shuttle, I will be sure to include it in the budget.
You are so close to the right answer that it hurts to watch you thrash. You seem to have so much to be happy about, I can't figure out why you keep at this. Why not just wait, with the absolute asurance of correctness that you seem to possess? Affluence, self-assurance, and arrogance have all come together at this one point (syzygy, I believe) Time will bear out one opinion or the other. I'm ready to wait. AS
08-31-2007, 08:55 PM
#172
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AS..... do some research about what forces a sailing boat have to go through on normal water (and try to imagine how big it might be with a little bit more wind and waves) and then try to compare that to the forces at any car anywhere in the world, anyway if its made from steel, aluminium or CF have to go through on roads or maybe on tracks, without hitting something (as you said: boats don't crash as often as cars do).
And after that research and comparison try to come back and write the same dumb answer again as you just did.
As you said: you know nothing, not only about boats....
And after that research and comparison try to come back and write the same dumb answer again as you just did.
As you said: you know nothing, not only about boats....
09-01-2007, 06:08 AM
#174
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I take your ocean swell and raise you at Beaufort 7
Boards used to often break in F7 and above environment, carbon fibre stopped all that. masts, extensions and booms -all 100% CF
Boards used to often break in F7 and above environment, carbon fibre stopped all that. masts, extensions and booms -all 100% CF
09-01-2007, 08:22 AM
#175
Rennlist Member
Net,
I fully agree on boats, and didn't intend to imply I didn't. Same for planes, rocket ships, etc.
The only point of my original post is that cars crash, and failing to take that into account when selecting materials means that repair costs of CF automobiles become astronomical due to propensity of CF to shatter. Sooner or later insurance companies will catch up with the loss data, and premiums will reflect those costs. Eventually buyers will become aware of the difficulties and delays of CF repair. Right now, everybody relates their understanding of cost/benefit to their past automotive experience. I am merely suggesting the jury is still out on that as it relates to CF chasis cars.
I would excise trim and detachable body panels from the arguement, as those pieces are more easily repaired, and larger production runs of components may lower costs. But, a fractured tub will be a much bigger headache than similar damage to a car with more-typical materials. And, it seems more likely that the tub will be suffer greater injury than a metal frame, given the hypothesis of idnetical accidents. Please correct me if I am wrong.
For those who are completely exempt from all concerns of expense, it becomes irrelevant, as does the purchase cost of the car, and every other 6 figure expense.
That doesn't mean the CGT isn't a great car, or CF boats or planes aren't perfectly suited for their environment. It just means, in my opinion, that CF is a very compromised choice for the core structure of a street car. The compromise is that you need to take on a lot of risk for weight loss and rigidity that aren't really apparant or necessary for 98% of the intended use of the buyer. That isn't true for the boat, pictured board, spacecraft nose cone, race car, and a probably myriad of other devices. Again, just my opinion. AS
I fully agree on boats, and didn't intend to imply I didn't. Same for planes, rocket ships, etc.
The only point of my original post is that cars crash, and failing to take that into account when selecting materials means that repair costs of CF automobiles become astronomical due to propensity of CF to shatter. Sooner or later insurance companies will catch up with the loss data, and premiums will reflect those costs. Eventually buyers will become aware of the difficulties and delays of CF repair. Right now, everybody relates their understanding of cost/benefit to their past automotive experience. I am merely suggesting the jury is still out on that as it relates to CF chasis cars.
I would excise trim and detachable body panels from the arguement, as those pieces are more easily repaired, and larger production runs of components may lower costs. But, a fractured tub will be a much bigger headache than similar damage to a car with more-typical materials. And, it seems more likely that the tub will be suffer greater injury than a metal frame, given the hypothesis of idnetical accidents. Please correct me if I am wrong.
For those who are completely exempt from all concerns of expense, it becomes irrelevant, as does the purchase cost of the car, and every other 6 figure expense.
That doesn't mean the CGT isn't a great car, or CF boats or planes aren't perfectly suited for their environment. It just means, in my opinion, that CF is a very compromised choice for the core structure of a street car. The compromise is that you need to take on a lot of risk for weight loss and rigidity that aren't really apparant or necessary for 98% of the intended use of the buyer. That isn't true for the boat, pictured board, spacecraft nose cone, race car, and a probably myriad of other devices. Again, just my opinion. AS
09-04-2007, 11:37 PM
#176
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I am sorry but I feel that this thread has gone far enough off track. This thread should be about the aesthetic yellowing of the CGT's carbon fiber. If you wish to discuss if carbon fiber is a good building material please start a new thread. In the past several pages nothing has been mentioned about the important topic at hand.
Thanks.
Thanks.
09-05-2007, 02:02 AM
#177
I am sorry but I feel that this thread has gone far enough off track. This thread should be about the aesthetic yellowing of the CGT's carbon fiber. If you wish to discuss if carbon fiber is a good building material please start a new thread. In the past several pages nothing has been mentioned about the important topic at hand.
Thanks.
And who made you the moderator. Your not even a Rennlist member. The boat builder has the experence and skills and has been around composites longer than your 22 yrs of age.
Thanks.
And who made you the moderator. Your not even a Rennlist member. The boat builder has the experence and skills and has been around composites longer than your 22 yrs of age.
09-17-2007, 02:08 AM
#179
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I didn't read this entire thread, so if this is mentioned forgive me, but the Bugatti, the Enzo and the CGT carbon tubs are all made at/by the same supplier in Italy, so buying a Veyron to get away fom this issue will be jumping from the frying pan into the fire.
I do hope all you CGT owners find a happy outcome in this sad tale, good luck.
I do hope all you CGT owners find a happy outcome in this sad tale, good luck.
