jhunt@huntinter

I wonder if Porsches reluctance to show CGT owners how to hook up a 5 point harness contributed to the injuries. I understand the anchor points are there just pcna doesn't want to tell people about them.

Then again 150mph into a wall is a significant impact regardless of restraint systems.

Sad day.

SRL

Personally I think 5-point belts are a problem in a car with no roll cage. When the car goes over, you can't duck a crushing roof, or windshield frame in the case of the CGT.

I won't use a 5-point in a car without a roll cage when I'm instructing. In fact, I'm reluctant to instruct in convertibles as well.

Arkay

I think it's far too early to speculate if 5-point harnesses would have made the difference for the driver and passenger in this tragic accident in Fontana.

However, on the general topic of multi-point harnesses in a streetable track car, I'm with SRL in that I will not drive a car or put on the harness in a student's car when a full or half cage is not present, preferring the 3-point seatbelt. That's the #1 reason I haven't put a harness into my own track car is because I haven't put a cage in...I've seen too many compressed A- or B-pillar following rollover incidents to be comfortable with the notion of wearing a harness without additional structural protection.

But given the nature of a full or asymmetric head-on and inelastic (if I recall my high school physics correctly) collision at high speed, the stress from deceleration that is exerted on the neck and base of the skull is too traumatic for belts to matter. Hence the adoption of the HANS device, especially after the death of Dale Earnhardt, for many forms of professional and amateur motorsports.

jayson

It is widely accepted that under many circumstances a 5 point harness can hurt you more than it helps (as seen 2 posts above). Also, a 5 point harness combined with a roll cage can have disastrous results in a collision when the driver is not wearing a helmet.

I was in a collision traveling at approx 35mph and smacked my head into the low roofline pretty hard. Imagine if it was a metal pole instead.

mikew968

I guess the airbags were no help in this case????

Mike

Swedeboy

I certainly feel it is too soon to discuss the causes of this accident and what can be learned. First we should pay our respects to the 2 smart, fun-loving and, above all, generous gentlemen who have passed away.

At a later stage, more details will become available with regards to the exact string of events leading to this aweful accident. Speculation based on some very summary initial reports isn't going to help anyone.

Looking at the relatively unscathed passenger cell - in this case the most likely cause of death would have been basular skull fracture. In the event of a heavy frontal or side impact, a properly fitted HANS device will majorly reduce the forces on the neck.

Steve L.

Does anyone have a link to read more about HANS devices?

jerome951

Steve,

www.hansdevice.com

Watch the videos. The 35mph impact w/o the HANS looks scary.

Harnesses are required for it to work. I bought one over the winter and like it. PM me if you have any questions.

Pierre

Here's probably the reference: http://hansdevice.com/
And the page at Stand21: http://www.stand21.fr/tour%20auto/tour%20auto-2.html (mine comes from them)

Greetings,
--Pierre

jayson

Many regard the Isaac device as being even better than HANS. (for personal use).


Check it out here:

http://www.isaacdirect.com/

AW

> In the event of a heavy frontal or side impact, a properly fitted HANS device will majorly reduce the forces on the neck.

My understanding is that an Hans device is good or frontal impact, not side impacts. I don't think Ben could have used an Hans because it requires a 5/6 points harness which itself requires at least a rollbar.

I hope we'll all learn from this tragedy.

AW

jhunt@huntinter

I have read on this board that the CGT has the anchors for a 5 point harness. Only PCNA doesn't want you to know about them (some lawyer likely decided that). So they are a big secret. The rear hoops act as roll bars, not a full cage but as roll bars. I would be very comfortable wearing a 5 or 6 pt harness in a cgt. That said, would wearing a harness have helped or not, that will be a very interesting question. And one that I hope Porsche pays dearly for if they truly did hide safety features from the owners.

Swedeboy

It's useful even in a side impact as it limits the movement and rotation of the neck. It excels in front and front/offset impacts.

HANS requires at least 2 shoulder belts, which means a 5/6 point harness is best suited. I'm not aware if the CGT has mounting points for 5/6 point belts without necessitating fitment of a rollbar.

Devia

We shall find out.

- Julie

Pierre

It can be done. I saw the mounting point when I was in Leipzig, but the guys told me the factory wouldn't officially install a harness. So one has to do it on hiw own. Too bad.

This pic below shows that it can be done, and that it's been done. (pic taken from a thread on another forum)

Greetings,
--Pierre