Fuel Cells and bladder replacement in Factory Cars (Cups and so on)
01-25-2012, 08:08 PM
#1
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
Fuel Cells and bladder replacement in Factory Cars (Cups and so on)
One sanctioning body (NASA) requires fuel cell bladder replacement every five (5) years. I am curious as to how this may affect factory cars, like the GT3 Cups and the GT3 R, RS and RSR family.
I think some of the Cups have had stockish tanks as opposed to cells early on, right? If so, when did this change?
And how difficult and/or expensive is it to change the bladder on factory cars with cells?
Does anyone out there know whether any other sanctioning body at any level requires bladder changes in these cars?
Any information much appreciated.
- Mike
I think some of the Cups have had stockish tanks as opposed to cells early on, right? If so, when did this change?
And how difficult and/or expensive is it to change the bladder on factory cars with cells?
Does anyone out there know whether any other sanctioning body at any level requires bladder changes in these cars?
Any information much appreciated.
- Mike
01-25-2012, 08:21 PM
#2
Cells are *supposed* to be replaced every 5 years. FIA cells can be recertified for an additional 2 yrs 1 time.
All cups came with a factory street style tank that does not have a bladder that needs to be replaced. All GT3 R/RS/RSR cars came with Premiere fuel cells and are subject to the date restrictions.
Many cups that were pro raced were upgraded to fuel cells (Premiere, ATL or Fuel Safe). The bladders are VERY pricey. The cheapest option is fuel safe which is about $5k for a replacement bladder for a 996. More for a 997. I believe a Premiere bladder is about twice that.The replacement is a pain. You have to drop the whole front subframe and it is difficult to remove and replace the cell itself.
All cups came with a factory street style tank that does not have a bladder that needs to be replaced. All GT3 R/RS/RSR cars came with Premiere fuel cells and are subject to the date restrictions.
Many cups that were pro raced were upgraded to fuel cells (Premiere, ATL or Fuel Safe). The bladders are VERY pricey. The cheapest option is fuel safe which is about $5k for a replacement bladder for a 996. More for a 997. I believe a Premiere bladder is about twice that.The replacement is a pain. You have to drop the whole front subframe and it is difficult to remove and replace the cell itself.
01-25-2012, 09:21 PM
#3
Rennlist Member
The timing out of cells is an issue with a bunch of used cups for sale, it can be a little bit of a surprise if you aren't aware of it. I checked around when looking at an early cup with a cell, got all kinds of quotes to replace it, two north of $10K. You may want to give Doug at Racetechnik a call, I just talked with him a week ago, he was shocked at the number I was quoted, he's done them and the cost nowhere near that (like $3K), Like Clay said its dropping the front out of the car and putting it back...
01-25-2012, 09:37 PM
#7
Former Vendor
cell
Gordon from autometrics was super helpful in getting me a sweet heart deal on a new cell for my 997 Cup. full kit, bladder, exterior, pumps. might as well change it all out and be done.
and i was able sell the one that came out for like 2800bucks.
and i was able sell the one that came out for like 2800bucks.
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01-25-2012, 09:38 PM
#8
Addict
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
My 2007 came with a stock tank, I replaced it when new with a Premier fuel cell.
I just researched this as my 2007 Cup Premier cell is coming up on its 5 years. Our crew chief looked into it for me. He found it was $1,700 +/- to send it to Premier's provider in England, they have regular shipments so no shipping charge if you send it in their container. They say 6 to 8 weeks turn around. This certification was good for 2 years. I did not ask the specific question and don't know if he did, but how many times it can be "recertified" but I would be surprised if it was "only" 1 time.
On top of this you would have the cost of taking the cell out and putting it back in, so whatever your local shop would charge for the same.
I then went thru the rulebooks for NASA/PRC, POC, and PCA (where I run) - Only NASA has a rule and POC and PCA do not address it. Nasa was the only racing body I found that had a specific rule, which required re-certification after 5 years.
My guess is since the Premier cell costs $14K + install new (did when I got mine anyway) - you would certainly re-certify, if required. And once you could not you would have to weigh the saftey of the cell versus the cost of putting the stock tank back in! Or you would go race with a different group who has no rule.
But you need to be sure what you have is safe, regardless of any rule. We have thoroughly inspected the bladder and the cell as well as all the foam in the cell and it looks the same as ones in the shop 4 years newer. In fact we were surprised how good it looks. It does not appear to have any deteroriation or pose any saftey issues.
This will effect 2007 cars who put cells in new in 2012, 2008's in 2013 etc. So it will affect attendance if enforced to the letter of the rule!
I just researched this as my 2007 Cup Premier cell is coming up on its 5 years. Our crew chief looked into it for me. He found it was $1,700 +/- to send it to Premier's provider in England, they have regular shipments so no shipping charge if you send it in their container. They say 6 to 8 weeks turn around. This certification was good for 2 years. I did not ask the specific question and don't know if he did, but how many times it can be "recertified" but I would be surprised if it was "only" 1 time.
On top of this you would have the cost of taking the cell out and putting it back in, so whatever your local shop would charge for the same.
I then went thru the rulebooks for NASA/PRC, POC, and PCA (where I run) - Only NASA has a rule and POC and PCA do not address it. Nasa was the only racing body I found that had a specific rule, which required re-certification after 5 years.
My guess is since the Premier cell costs $14K + install new (did when I got mine anyway) - you would certainly re-certify, if required. And once you could not you would have to weigh the saftey of the cell versus the cost of putting the stock tank back in! Or you would go race with a different group who has no rule.
But you need to be sure what you have is safe, regardless of any rule. We have thoroughly inspected the bladder and the cell as well as all the foam in the cell and it looks the same as ones in the shop 4 years newer. In fact we were surprised how good it looks. It does not appear to have any deteroriation or pose any saftey issues.
This will effect 2007 cars who put cells in new in 2012, 2008's in 2013 etc. So it will affect attendance if enforced to the letter of the rule!
01-25-2012, 09:57 PM
#9
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
SCCA is silent on this. I reviewed the FIA documents some time ago, and I am pretty sure they still have a date requirement.
I was asking because "we" have an opportunity to perhaps work with NASA for an exception for races under their sanction. Well, truthfully, we have exercised this opportunity. Now "we" may be considering giving it up.
I don't have a dog in this fight, but I have some friends that race frequently with us, and have R and RS cars that will have to pony up. Also those that want to join us for an event here and there ,ay have non-compliant factory cars probably won't be able to run (for example at Sears Point in conjunction with POC at the end of October).
Often sanctions require you to use these kinds of things in accordance with their labeling as a general rule.
Bit of a mess.
I was asking because "we" have an opportunity to perhaps work with NASA for an exception for races under their sanction. Well, truthfully, we have exercised this opportunity. Now "we" may be considering giving it up.
I don't have a dog in this fight, but I have some friends that race frequently with us, and have R and RS cars that will have to pony up. Also those that want to join us for an event here and there ,ay have non-compliant factory cars probably won't be able to run (for example at Sears Point in conjunction with POC at the end of October).
Often sanctions require you to use these kinds of things in accordance with their labeling as a general rule.
Bit of a mess.
Last edited by Mahler9th; 01-25-2012 at 10:45 PM.
01-25-2012, 10:09 PM
#10
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
To be clear:
If a sanction has a general rule to use stuff according to its labeling, then any SFI or FIA rated stuff that has replace or re-cert dates in their specifications falls underneath, regardless of its specific mention in the sanctioner's rules. Unless stated as an exception. Not sure which ones have such rules, and even if they do, whether they enforce compliance. And if so, how they enforce compliance.
NASA does have a very specific rule that says 5+ year old bladders should not be used. They added this rule a few years back at a time where there were some reports of cell materials deteriorating. Perhaps coincidence, perhaps not. And they have very recently added wording to their rules to explain the word "should." And now they have special discounts on Fuel Safe stuff.
"We" race under NASA sanction, and years ago NASA agreed that our "class" could have a different rule which recommended annual inspection but did not require the 5 year change out. Some of "us" want to go to the more restrictive NASA rule. Not sure why.
No other sanction I know of is as specific as NASA... so I am wondering why all of you guys make changes if they are not required. Sounds like some/most feel it is a good idea anyway.
In any case, we will see what happens.
If a sanction has a general rule to use stuff according to its labeling, then any SFI or FIA rated stuff that has replace or re-cert dates in their specifications falls underneath, regardless of its specific mention in the sanctioner's rules. Unless stated as an exception. Not sure which ones have such rules, and even if they do, whether they enforce compliance. And if so, how they enforce compliance.
NASA does have a very specific rule that says 5+ year old bladders should not be used. They added this rule a few years back at a time where there were some reports of cell materials deteriorating. Perhaps coincidence, perhaps not. And they have very recently added wording to their rules to explain the word "should." And now they have special discounts on Fuel Safe stuff.
"We" race under NASA sanction, and years ago NASA agreed that our "class" could have a different rule which recommended annual inspection but did not require the 5 year change out. Some of "us" want to go to the more restrictive NASA rule. Not sure why.
No other sanction I know of is as specific as NASA... so I am wondering why all of you guys make changes if they are not required. Sounds like some/most feel it is a good idea anyway.
In any case, we will see what happens.
01-25-2012, 10:13 PM
#11
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
Sometimes shops recommend changing things out to avoid potential customer satisfaction problems down the road. Even if those changes are noy mandated by rules, or obviously necessary. I understand that.
And of course, unfortunately, shop motivations fall on a continuum. At the extreme end may be those that are a bit more aggressive/conservative as they have hungry mouths to feed.
And of course, unfortunately, shop motivations fall on a continuum. At the extreme end may be those that are a bit more aggressive/conservative as they have hungry mouths to feed.
01-25-2012, 10:36 PM
#12
My 2007 came with a stock tank, I replaced it when new with a Premier fuel cell.
I just researched this as my 2007 Cup Premier cell is coming up on its 5 years. Our crew chief looked into it for me. He found it was $1,700 +/- to send it to Premier's provider in England, they have regular shipments so no shipping charge if you send it in their container. They say 6 to 8 weeks turn around. This certification was good for 2 years. I did not ask the specific question and don't know if he did, but how many times it can be "recertified" but I would be surprised if it was "only" 1 time.
On top of this you would have the cost of taking the cell out and putting it back in, so whatever your local shop would charge for the same.
I then went thru the rulebooks for NASA/PRC, POC, and PCA (where I run) - Only NASA has a rule and POC and PCA do not address it. Nasa was the only racing body I found that had a specific rule, which required re-certification after 5 years.
My guess is since the Premier cell costs $14K + install new (did when I got mine anyway) - you would certainly re-certify, if required. And once you could not you would have to weigh the saftey of the cell versus the cost of putting the stock tank back in! Or you would go race with a different group who has no rule.
But you need to be sure what you have is safe, regardless of any rule. We have thoroughly inspected the bladder and the cell as well as all the foam in the cell and it looks the same as ones in the shop 4 years newer. In fact we were surprised how good it looks. It does not appear to have any deteroriation or pose any saftey issues.
This will effect 2007 cars who put cells in new in 2012, 2008's in 2013 etc. So it will affect attendance if enforced to the letter of the rule!
I just researched this as my 2007 Cup Premier cell is coming up on its 5 years. Our crew chief looked into it for me. He found it was $1,700 +/- to send it to Premier's provider in England, they have regular shipments so no shipping charge if you send it in their container. They say 6 to 8 weeks turn around. This certification was good for 2 years. I did not ask the specific question and don't know if he did, but how many times it can be "recertified" but I would be surprised if it was "only" 1 time.
On top of this you would have the cost of taking the cell out and putting it back in, so whatever your local shop would charge for the same.
I then went thru the rulebooks for NASA/PRC, POC, and PCA (where I run) - Only NASA has a rule and POC and PCA do not address it. Nasa was the only racing body I found that had a specific rule, which required re-certification after 5 years.
My guess is since the Premier cell costs $14K + install new (did when I got mine anyway) - you would certainly re-certify, if required. And once you could not you would have to weigh the saftey of the cell versus the cost of putting the stock tank back in! Or you would go race with a different group who has no rule.
But you need to be sure what you have is safe, regardless of any rule. We have thoroughly inspected the bladder and the cell as well as all the foam in the cell and it looks the same as ones in the shop 4 years newer. In fact we were surprised how good it looks. It does not appear to have any deteroriation or pose any saftey issues.
This will effect 2007 cars who put cells in new in 2012, 2008's in 2013 etc. So it will affect attendance if enforced to the letter of the rule!
Also, I have had an old (~10 yr) bladder spring a leak before. It was a fuel safe, and not a cup cell but a regular generic rectangular cell.
01-26-2012, 09:58 AM
#13
Instructor
i just purchased a new fuel safe cell, for our cup car. Had battery burns on it and understandably could not be recertified. It was around 5k which i think is very reasonable as it came with pumps
