Bosch ABS M4 kit for 997 Cup
06-30-2011, 03:43 AM
#1
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Bosch ABS M4 kit for 997 Cup
Hey guys, I am really fed up with how easy it is to lock up the wheels with my 997 Cup. If I have endless supply of tires to replace my flat spot corded ones then who cares. At this point I am ready to add a motorsport ABS system to save myself the frustration. I did some research and looks like Bosch motorsport ABS M4 kit might be a great fit http://www.bosch-motorsport.com/cont.../html/3490.htm
It cost $5890 Euro and I would estimate couple more $$$ to have it installed. Anyone here have the system and how do you like it and what was your total cost to retrofit?
Cheers
Mike
It cost $5890 Euro and I would estimate couple more $$$ to have it installed. Anyone here have the system and how do you like it and what was your total cost to retrofit?
Cheers
Mike
06-30-2011, 08:31 AM
#2
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I believe this or a similar system is what a lot of the continental challenge guys are using. I have heard it is very good.
The brake lock up shouldn't be a problem. What pads are you using? Is it the front or rear lockup? Have you had an experience/pro driver check the car out to make sure there isn't any problems and help with adjusting the brake bias? When the bias is correct or even in the window you shouldn't have big lockup issues.
There are a few things that could help. Smaller master cylinders to increase the pedal travel and improve the pedal feel. Adjusting the pedal position. Adding a motec LED bar and program to indicate impending lockup. Adding brake pressure sensors so your brake pressure can be examined.
If you are racing your car in a stock cup class then aftermarket abs might not be allowed.
ABS in itself will not improve braking power or reduce lap times. It will keep you from squaring up tires but with some practice and the right setup and braking technique that shouldn't be a big problem.
The brake lock up shouldn't be a problem. What pads are you using? Is it the front or rear lockup? Have you had an experience/pro driver check the car out to make sure there isn't any problems and help with adjusting the brake bias? When the bias is correct or even in the window you shouldn't have big lockup issues.
There are a few things that could help. Smaller master cylinders to increase the pedal travel and improve the pedal feel. Adjusting the pedal position. Adding a motec LED bar and program to indicate impending lockup. Adding brake pressure sensors so your brake pressure can be examined.
If you are racing your car in a stock cup class then aftermarket abs might not be allowed.
ABS in itself will not improve braking power or reduce lap times. It will keep you from squaring up tires but with some practice and the right setup and braking technique that shouldn't be a big problem.
06-30-2011, 09:01 AM
#3
Mike,
IMHO You should spend the $ on coaching and brake pressure sensors. If You want to take Your driving to the next level You must learn how to modulate and control the lockup. If You bastardize the car with ABS it wont be legal to run in any race series anywhere and the classes You can run in it wont be competitive. As it sets it can run in many and be very competitive with brake modulation being a key differentiator between wins and losses/driver ability. You will be WAY more prepared to drive anything over the years if You learn how to spike the brakes at high speed using the aero downforce and reduce spike/pressure as downforce/grip decreases. Oher wise You are just pushing the pedal as hard as You can and using abs, dont really learn how to roll speed into corners / using turn scrub and less brake to maximize enry/mid corner and back to power earlier. You will inevitably become a drive hard into corner and point and squirt straights driver...You have the perfect platform to get Your talent to the next level. I can get Darren Law, Kelly Collins or Pat Long to come spend a day or two with You and have a WAY better result than installing ABS. Again, just my thoughts based on lots of experience. Try my idea and see if it is not a lot better option. No downside....
IMHO You should spend the $ on coaching and brake pressure sensors. If You want to take Your driving to the next level You must learn how to modulate and control the lockup. If You bastardize the car with ABS it wont be legal to run in any race series anywhere and the classes You can run in it wont be competitive. As it sets it can run in many and be very competitive with brake modulation being a key differentiator between wins and losses/driver ability. You will be WAY more prepared to drive anything over the years if You learn how to spike the brakes at high speed using the aero downforce and reduce spike/pressure as downforce/grip decreases. Oher wise You are just pushing the pedal as hard as You can and using abs, dont really learn how to roll speed into corners / using turn scrub and less brake to maximize enry/mid corner and back to power earlier. You will inevitably become a drive hard into corner and point and squirt straights driver...You have the perfect platform to get Your talent to the next level. I can get Darren Law, Kelly Collins or Pat Long to come spend a day or two with You and have a WAY better result than installing ABS. Again, just my thoughts based on lots of experience. Try my idea and see if it is not a lot better option. No downside....
06-30-2011, 12:02 PM
#4
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Hey Glen and Cory. Thanks for the excellent feedback. I was and still is the "hard into corner and point and squirt straights driver" which I carry into the Cup car. I have adjust the brake bias (my brake bias was all on the *** on my first time out at Thunderhill and got spun around like no one's business) and try to modulate braking. My problem comes when the tires and track are cold then it locks up super easy. I have gone through two sets of tires already and really need help to prevent pancake them so frequently. I would love some proper coaching ... 
06-30-2011, 12:52 PM
#5
Burning Brakes
mikymu, I've had similar frustrations since moving to the 997 Cup. However, since I run my car in the stock classes/series the ABS systems aren't an option (neither is changing master cyls, etc). Assuming your brake bias and overall brake system aren't having issues, you just need to get a feel for it.
After about 7 or 8 weekends of racing my 997 Cup (plus 3-4 lapping/test days), I think I've reached the point where I can use up most of the braking potential in the car (also been getting help from JvO which has made my learning curve look like a hockey stick). I've still flat spotted a couple sets of tires, which is *extremely* frustrating... especially when they're a new set or your last set for an event.
There's still a little bit more feel I need to learn in the car to really feel the threshold lockup, but to reduce that learning time I've spent the last few weeks working on some logic in the MoTeC that'll trigger a lockup threshold and completely lockup indicator light. If you look at my in-car videos from Infineon 2 weekends ago, you'll see the MoTeC warning light come on in the braking zones. I'm using that light to make sure the software works before hacking another light into the dash. If you want the MoTeC code to do this, I'll send it to you after my next event (July 9-10 @ Thunderhill, need to test it first).
Basically, it simply calculates a % of each wheel speed versus 'Ground Speed' (i know not perfect, but i can feel it if i lock up both fronts. locking up 1 is the problem for me)and returns that value through a custom Channel. Then in the Alert sections, I do some sanity checks (for brake status, min speed, etc) and check to see if any of the wheels are below that %. If they are I trigger the threshold indicator.
Most of the Grand Am guys use lockup indicator lights with a hard coded MPH/KPH difference in wheel speed that activates the warning, and you change the MPH/KPH limit between tracks based on the most important braking zones. The % difference really seems better to me as it works in both the slow speed and high speed corners and seems more reliable and easier to tune. However, there might be a reason they don't do it this way... which is why I want to test it again before I pass it on to anyone. :-)
The brakes on the 997 Cups are extremely difficult to maximize, but I think if you can do it in that car, you can drive damn near anything at really quick speeds.
I've attached a picture of my motec data where it's comparing JvO's fast lap w/ one of mine where I locked up a wheel going into T14 @ Thunderhill a couple months ago. Notice the slight differential in brake application cause the wheel to lockup for me, but he kept it on the threshold. His are the red lines, mine are the blue.
-mike
After about 7 or 8 weekends of racing my 997 Cup (plus 3-4 lapping/test days), I think I've reached the point where I can use up most of the braking potential in the car (also been getting help from JvO which has made my learning curve look like a hockey stick). I've still flat spotted a couple sets of tires, which is *extremely* frustrating... especially when they're a new set or your last set for an event.
There's still a little bit more feel I need to learn in the car to really feel the threshold lockup, but to reduce that learning time I've spent the last few weeks working on some logic in the MoTeC that'll trigger a lockup threshold and completely lockup indicator light. If you look at my in-car videos from Infineon 2 weekends ago, you'll see the MoTeC warning light come on in the braking zones. I'm using that light to make sure the software works before hacking another light into the dash. If you want the MoTeC code to do this, I'll send it to you after my next event (July 9-10 @ Thunderhill, need to test it first).
Basically, it simply calculates a % of each wheel speed versus 'Ground Speed' (i know not perfect, but i can feel it if i lock up both fronts. locking up 1 is the problem for me)and returns that value through a custom Channel. Then in the Alert sections, I do some sanity checks (for brake status, min speed, etc) and check to see if any of the wheels are below that %. If they are I trigger the threshold indicator.
Most of the Grand Am guys use lockup indicator lights with a hard coded MPH/KPH difference in wheel speed that activates the warning, and you change the MPH/KPH limit between tracks based on the most important braking zones. The % difference really seems better to me as it works in both the slow speed and high speed corners and seems more reliable and easier to tune. However, there might be a reason they don't do it this way... which is why I want to test it again before I pass it on to anyone. :-)
The brakes on the 997 Cups are extremely difficult to maximize, but I think if you can do it in that car, you can drive damn near anything at really quick speeds.
I've attached a picture of my motec data where it's comparing JvO's fast lap w/ one of mine where I locked up a wheel going into T14 @ Thunderhill a couple months ago. Notice the slight differential in brake application cause the wheel to lockup for me, but he kept it on the threshold. His are the red lines, mine are the blue.
-mike
06-30-2011, 05:37 PM
#6
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I agree 100% with everything Cory and Glen said. I had a Motec program like Mike mentions in my GTC4 car and it was helpful, it would light up the ALARM and display a note on the bottom that said FRONT LOCKUP or REAR LOCKUP.
Good luck~!
Good luck~!
06-30-2011, 09:20 PM
#7
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mikymu, I've had similar frustrations since moving to the 997 Cup. However, since I run my car in the stock classes/series the ABS systems aren't an option (neither is changing master cyls, etc). Assuming your brake bias and overall brake system aren't having issues, you just need to get a feel for it.
After about 7 or 8 weekends of racing my 997 Cup (plus 3-4 lapping/test days), I think I've reached the point where I can use up most of the braking potential in the car (also been getting help from JvO which has made my learning curve look like a hockey stick). I've still flat spotted a couple sets of tires, which is *extremely* frustrating... especially when they're a new set or your last set for an event.
There's still a little bit more feel I need to learn in the car to really feel the threshold lockup, but to reduce that learning time I've spent the last few weeks working on some logic in the MoTeC that'll trigger a lockup threshold and completely lockup indicator light. If you look at my in-car videos from Infineon 2 weekends ago, you'll see the MoTeC warning light come on in the braking zones. I'm using that light to make sure the software works before hacking another light into the dash. If you want the MoTeC code to do this, I'll send it to you after my next event (July 9-10 @ Thunderhill, need to test it first).
Basically, it simply calculates a % of each wheel speed versus 'Ground Speed' (i know not perfect, but i can feel it if i lock up both fronts. locking up 1 is the problem for me)and returns that value through a custom Channel. Then in the Alert sections, I do some sanity checks (for brake status, min speed, etc) and check to see if any of the wheels are below that %. If they are I trigger the threshold indicator.
Most of the Grand Am guys use lockup indicator lights with a hard coded MPH/KPH difference in wheel speed that activates the warning, and you change the MPH/KPH limit between tracks based on the most important braking zones. The % difference really seems better to me as it works in both the slow speed and high speed corners and seems more reliable and easier to tune. However, there might be a reason they don't do it this way... which is why I want to test it again before I pass it on to anyone. :-)
The brakes on the 997 Cups are extremely difficult to maximize, but I think if you can do it in that car, you can drive damn near anything at really quick speeds.
I've attached a picture of my motec data where it's comparing JvO's fast lap w/ one of mine where I locked up a wheel going into T14 @ Thunderhill a couple months ago. Notice the slight differential in brake application cause the wheel to lockup for me, but he kept it on the threshold. His are the red lines, mine are the blue.
-mike
After about 7 or 8 weekends of racing my 997 Cup (plus 3-4 lapping/test days), I think I've reached the point where I can use up most of the braking potential in the car (also been getting help from JvO which has made my learning curve look like a hockey stick). I've still flat spotted a couple sets of tires, which is *extremely* frustrating... especially when they're a new set or your last set for an event.
There's still a little bit more feel I need to learn in the car to really feel the threshold lockup, but to reduce that learning time I've spent the last few weeks working on some logic in the MoTeC that'll trigger a lockup threshold and completely lockup indicator light. If you look at my in-car videos from Infineon 2 weekends ago, you'll see the MoTeC warning light come on in the braking zones. I'm using that light to make sure the software works before hacking another light into the dash. If you want the MoTeC code to do this, I'll send it to you after my next event (July 9-10 @ Thunderhill, need to test it first).
Basically, it simply calculates a % of each wheel speed versus 'Ground Speed' (i know not perfect, but i can feel it if i lock up both fronts. locking up 1 is the problem for me)and returns that value through a custom Channel. Then in the Alert sections, I do some sanity checks (for brake status, min speed, etc) and check to see if any of the wheels are below that %. If they are I trigger the threshold indicator.
Most of the Grand Am guys use lockup indicator lights with a hard coded MPH/KPH difference in wheel speed that activates the warning, and you change the MPH/KPH limit between tracks based on the most important braking zones. The % difference really seems better to me as it works in both the slow speed and high speed corners and seems more reliable and easier to tune. However, there might be a reason they don't do it this way... which is why I want to test it again before I pass it on to anyone. :-)
The brakes on the 997 Cups are extremely difficult to maximize, but I think if you can do it in that car, you can drive damn near anything at really quick speeds.
I've attached a picture of my motec data where it's comparing JvO's fast lap w/ one of mine where I locked up a wheel going into T14 @ Thunderhill a couple months ago. Notice the slight differential in brake application cause the wheel to lockup for me, but he kept it on the threshold. His are the red lines, mine are the blue.
-mike
Excellent feedback and glad you can feel my pain. The times I lock up my wheels are when the tire and road temp are cold and I really have no trouble other times. I learn what brak bias do the hard way first time out on the track - all the brake bis was on the *** and spun violently at T10 Thunderhill. I have driven, really driven my Cup car on the track 3 times so far and getting better each event. No coaching so far ... I need to get a passenger seat first.
Hey, I will be at Thunderhill on 7/9 and 7/10 with mooty and 7 or 8 other GT3/RS. I will be looking for you to see if we can get the lock up warning light to work. I have one more set of brand new Yoko and really don't want to flat spot them if I can avoided.
Cheers
Mike
We have too many Mikes on the forum lol. Will add brake lock up warning on my Motec soon.
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07-01-2011, 06:48 AM
#8
Burning Brakes
for me, braking is the hardest aspect of driving these things fast... especially when going from 6th gear down to 2nd. there's a lot going on. like heading into turn 3 at fontana.
07-02-2011, 02:51 PM
#9
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All great points made here and there is no question, the best upgrade you can make to your Cup car for more performance is upgrading your Motec and investing in a Driving Coach.
We offer both at GMG and have an extensive Motec Driver Assist Program in place if anyone is interested.
We offer both at GMG and have an extensive Motec Driver Assist Program in place if anyone is interested.
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07-02-2011, 10:19 PM
#10
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patients young grasshopper....
like a young Luke Skywalker learning the ways of the Force....
I too thought about this when considering 997 CUP over 996 CUP for my level of ability, especially without ABS.
I think GMG has the answer.
like a young Luke Skywalker learning the ways of the Force....
I too thought about this when considering 997 CUP over 996 CUP for my level of ability, especially without ABS.
I think GMG has the answer.
