BDHo

If you were looking for an air cooled cup car (993 or 964), how important is the wagonpass? Would you guys pass on an otherwise nice car that did not have a wagonpass? And if so, how much would you discount the price versus having a wagonpass?
Were these cars only sold to pro teams for the supercup series.. e.g. can we assume they all have pro history ?
Am i dramatically limiting my potential upside if the market for these cars gets very hot in the future.
thanks

Glen

A wagenpass is merely a source of provenance. If You can assure its genuine through other methods/sources then not really a big deal. The concern on the 964/993 is the counterfeit cars built over the years, mostly in Europe, that took advantage of the spike in those cars value.
There are several great 6/7 Cups without Wagenpasses, some legit as they never had one(US delivery) and some still legit(just lost over time).
Hope that is helpful.

Geoffrey

Without a doubt, a car with a Wagenpass is worth more than a car without one (all else equal). How many times do you hear an owner discuss the history of their car, and there are some that are worth more than others due to this fact (Tag Heur 964 Cup driven by Mika Hakkenin for instance). Most, but not all of the 964 / 993 Cups have Carrera / Supercup racing history as they were built in few numbers and the series were just beginning. As Glen mentiones, the Wagenpass is one resource you have to validate the authenticity of the car as well as to locate its original livery for restoration purposes.

With the later 996/997 Cups, you see many more that were purchased new for club racing with some being only driven in DEs. In the case of the latter cars, I think that with few exceptions, the condition and maintenance of the car is more important than its history.

The Cup / Supercup series was an amature series, not a professional series.

dave morris

Sure, I'd agree that a car with a Wagenpass is worth more (all else equal). How much more is hard to say. If I could absolutely establish the car's authenticity w/o the Wagenpass, the delta for me wouldn't be much. Maybe a couple hundred bucks? The rub is the "all else equal".

And I probably wouldn't pay anything more for a car driven twenty five years ago by a famous driver. Very little to no value in that for me. A "car collector" might like it though.

BDHo

What else can be done to check the authenticity of these cars? Besides checking that all Vin plates match and are real cup VIN#s, what else can be done to make sure its fully legit?

thanks everyone for answering.

Geoffrey

Knowing the chassis differences between the street cars and Cup cars is a big help in identifying a car that has been retubbed out of a street car (I've seen a few). A good welder can cut the chassis numbers and VIN plates and weld them in so they are very hard to notice, especially once painted. The Matter serial number and tag is one way, the quality and characteristics of the welding on the cage is another. The seamwelding on the chassis and bracket delete process is a third way.

BrandonH

Just a data set of '1' but having just completed my 'vintage' cupcar search, I will say that after time, I just quit looking at cars without Wagonpass and other documentation. If Collector appeal ever materializes for these cars, it will be because they have their own small place in Porsche racing history, and if the cars ever do get valuable enough such that the type of proficient counterfeiting Geoffrey describes becomes economical, the documents will become critical.

bauerjab

Unfortunately, I consider myself somewhat of an expert in this area. It took me over three months and numerous headaches to determine if the 964 Cup that I purchased was, in fact, authentic. All structural inspectiions showed that it was, e.g., aluminum hood, correct suspension & brakes, clutch, tunnel & suspension spot welds, Mater cage, weight, ABS default panic button, lighter weight glass, etc. But it did not have a Wagonpass.

For a 964 Cup, there are two key pieces of information. The first is the VIN. The second is the chassis production number which is stamped into the metal chassis in two different places in the car.

By matching the chassis production number to the VIN, one can conclusively determine if the car has been reshelled. The problem is that only Porsche knows the relationship between the two and Porsche guards that information like Fort Knox. It took incredible peristence, but I finally got confirmation directly from Porsche that the chassis production number and VIN were for a 964 cup. I also received other information confirming the correct transmission serial number and engine serial number.

Of course I have saved the correspondence from Porsche should I ever sell the car.

Red9

What was your contact point with Porsche?

bauerjab

Also, I subsequently noticed that Geoffrey said it was possible to weld in the chassis production code and VIN plates. ... Clever!!!!

In my case, we checked that very carefully and it was clear that was not done.

Also, FYI, to convert a 964 to a cup 964 is a monumental undertaking - there is another thread on it.

I think the bottom line is that if you know what to look for, AND you can inspect the car before buying it, you will be able to determine if the car is authentic. Also, the more paperwork you have, the better off you are. I obtained a significant amount of paperwork that tracked the history of the car.

Good luck.

DrJupeman

Fwiw, I mulled this very issue when I bought my 964 Cup. I do not have the wagenpass. After receiving the car from Germany, I did not lose any more sleep over it. I do understand that any potential buyer will want it, as I did. I have letters from the original Carrera & Supercup race team talking about the car and other things which make me feel good that the car is legit. Hopefully a future buyer will also feel good about the documentation. Either way, I consider my car a good example of a 964 Cup and that's what you want. Although Geoffrey says the Carrera and Supercup are amateur series, my car was raced by Obermaier racing which, as best I can tell, looked a lot like a Farnbacher or TRG today.

(Btw, another piece that makes me feel good about the legitimacy of my car is as I've talked about selling it recently, the guy I bought it from in Germany wants it back...)

chfs911

I believe the race history is an important factor in the car value. However, I bought a 964 Cup which was completely original panels apart from maybe a wing and the Alu bonnet. The car has been completely refurbished so it is like new.

It raced in 1991 and 92 in the French cup series. The seals are still on the engine and stickers on ABS and ECU. The car did 2 races in 94 in Belcar then was stored until I bought it. I am currently trying to piece together the early race history as I did not get the Wagenpass.

These cars were built to race and mid to late nineties you could buy them for less than $30K. Teams did not bother too much with paperwork as they were sold on to track schools and lower category racers.

I believe a very clean example of the first series is a better buy than some of the well used cars which are now 20 years old and will have very few original panels.

You can check how many you have as the engine hood, doors and shell all carry the production no. which Porsche can tie to the VIN for you. Or you can get someone with Cup car and check it fits the sequence.

Mine all ties up and given the choice between original panels and Wagenpass I would always go for the former.

It would be nice to pool all the Cup car Vin nos. against Teams and drivers and come up with a picture of the race cars and history. The first L series cars numbered only 50 and the first 35 were raced in 1990 German Cup. The other 15 got sold to privateers( I think) and mine ( 48) was delivered March 1991.
No. 50 is the only Tiptronic car driven at the Nurburgring by Walter Rohl.

My car was destined for the French Cup to replace the 994 Turbos they raced in 1990. The main difference was the 91 cars ran the speedometer from the abs rather than the gearbox sensors in 1990. The 1990 &91 cars carry C2 shell production numbers and the 1992 & 93 cars the Euro RS shell nos.

I have checked this info as we get 5-6 Cup cars coming to the Spa Francorchamps days every year.

The 1990 Winning car in Signal green is the 007 car driven by Olaf Manthey.
Freshly refurbished for the Spa days on 16th-18th April.

One of the first 50 Cup cars has been reshelled, Harald Becker crashed it very early in the 1990 season.

Hope some of you can make it over to research your cars history!

If you want to share your Vin and Team/Driver history I am happy to pull a list together for owners.

Charles

BrandonH

It will be interesting to see how collector interest in these cars unfolds. If the backstory is compelling enough, collectors have been shown to be willing to pay up (albeit somewhat discounted) for historic racing cars that are essentially reconstructions built around a chassis plate. There are any number of notoriously suspect D-types, Ferraris and Mercedes that fit the description. On the other hand, mint condition 'back up cars' with no major wins or famous drivers can still command top dollar if they are largely original. Then the whole question of originality is somewhat fluid, with programs like Ferrari's Classique essentially re-stamping new parts with old serial numbers and using their manufacturer's sovereignty to declare the result 'authentic.'
Cup cars, while rare relative to their production kin, were still relatively mass produced, then raced in amateur, single marque series, then on to GTP or other regional venues. So I don't see that they compare with prototype cars, or the classics of the 50's and 60's. On the other hand, Porsche collecting is in a class of its own, and maybe someday it becomes essential that any respectable porsche collection has one each of the factory cup cars. In which case the original seals, tech stickers, etc could become very big value drivers.
In any case, irreproachable provenance always adds value.
How do others think about this?

roketman

Here's my info. What can you tell me?
BIG THANKS IN ADVANCE!

chfs911

German Cup series car based on the RS production run. Harold Grohs raced for the Obermier Team. Would need to check who Van Der Velde raced for ( Grohs may have been guesting). He normall drove the Maxcom car like my avatar

Grohs also raced in the Maxcom car in the Supercup in 1993.

Car was shipped to New Zealand end of 1992! :O)