Luke

My turbonetics turbo smoked since the first week . I"m looking to have her rebuilt before I sell the car this season.

fusionsport

"In the early days Turbonetics worked with us and another shop to help us develop the first Garrett Hybrid turbo for use on a KKK car."

Ummm- not true- I believe the first to do a Garret-to-KKK swap was Jerry Woods, or perhaps it was Turbonetics themselves- it gets a little cloudy as everyone was trying a bit of everything- and truth is several people ended up with Garret turbines on the back of Porsches looking for added power-but its safe to say that Garret turbos were on 930's long before Huntley or anyone here thought about it. As far as a Garret to KKK swap on a 944- I have no idea who was the first- nor do I care. Long as the turbo works- doesnt fill the intercooler with oil Im a happy guy- Im in the middle of doing a fairly mild 951 motor for a fellow- 2.5 block bored and sleeved- (I personally dont believe in boring the aluminum block oversized), Pauter rods, JE pistons, etc etc the turbo is actually the restriction when done- and I am not- nor have I even considered for a second- using one of Huntleys turbos, or any product from him- not just cause of the bad press he has gotten, but because I have a supplier I use and trust, and do not believe in stop-gap enrichment devices or sloppy engine management. One of the reasons I truly believe Huntley has gotten such bad press is his use of less expensive- for the customer- electronics. It is kinda stupid IMHO to pay almost 2 grand for a MAF and a add-in enrichment device when for a few dollars- and not many in the grand scheme of things- a programmable ECU can be added to the car and a real honest to God map built. For that matter there are a few REALLY (VERY VERY FEW) good chip burners around who can re-map the OE ecu and again no add-on devices required. For my money I start with Motec, if thats not in the budget, I have a chip burned ON THE DYNO. yeah- its a few dollars- but then an engine failure is many many more. There are other things that really have to be done to make the engine last that Im not sure(because no one has said) if Huntley does or not. Like having the intake balanced- this is a current working theory behind #2 bearing failures- the lean mixture in #2 causes just enough knock to beat the bearing out and shortens its life. The intake has to be cut and welded and flowed by someone who knows what they are doing- simply porting it MAKES THE CONDITION WORSE- dont ask how I know- lets just say I have a customer who will never doubt my word again. At any rate i could go on. I am sure Huntley does quality work- whether or not he or his people do the quality of work you expect- thats up to you- I dont agree with his strategies and approach to building power- so what- its all largely a matter of opinion.

Huntley Racing

I should have been clearer. We developed the first 944 Turbo Garrett application. There were many out there using them on 930 turbos before we began out development for the 944 turbo. Garrett has a hot side which is nearly bolt on for the 930 but that did not exist for the 951. I can assure you we were the first to do this on the 951. As far as bolt on vs. stand alone EFI goes of course you are correct that EFI is better than a piggyback system. However you fail to understand the market. Not everyone is willing to go through the untold hours of installation, tuning, modifying etc... to run aftermarket EFI. Much of what is known of Huntley Racing comes from our mail order and not from our race fabrication shop. We do many many EFI systems in house from EFI Systems Italy to Motec, to Link, to Electromotive. All of our racecars that run injection are full EFI cars not piggyback. The application dictates the system used. For a daily driver with few mods, piggyback is generally less money, easier to install and more than capable of supporting the car properly. Simply taking one option as the 'ONLY' option is narrow minded and shows a lack of flexibility to the needs of the consumer.

fusionsport

Not to go back and forth- but a MOTEC M4 or M48 is up to the task and reasonably priced- including the harness- which G has done enough of to have a pattern and can nearly make a "standard replacement" drop in harness for the 944 or Turbo, or for most other Porsches(if not all) for that matter. Truth is its easier to sell a customer a 3k MAF and prop-up unit than it is to simply tell them that for a good quality stand-alone its only a few pesos more- and BTW you still have to wire in, tune, and test the bolt-in prop crap. If its a mildly hotted-up street-car then as I said it is more cost effective to simply have a proper chip burned for that car on the dyno. Im glad you have had the experience of working with all those different units- and I myself have worked with every nearly every efi you can name- and simply put it is ALWAYS cheaper in the grand scheme of things to do a stand-alone ecu. But then I dont sell MAF conversions, nor do I use them, and I never recomend them. I gave MOTEC as an example- because for some reason the Porsche enthusiast has been led to believe that it is prohibitively expensive and a bastard to work with. Not true and you and I know it- Once the Motec(or any other ECU) is set- leave it if it is a street/track car, at least until the next modification. Another myth is all the tuning BS going on- once the car is mapped leave it alone unless you have a dyno, wideband lambda data logging, or your just plain stupid and like to tinker with things and blow up peoples motors. In most- not all but most- street car cases a car can be mapped in a two to three hour dyno session- and thats if you are making changes.
Again all of this is largely a matter of opinion- and as for what a customer needs/wants it is up to the shop/tuner to give the customer the best service possible- not always to cut corners or met a budget-just as I would never recommend stock rods in an engine being built for high boost or RPM, I wouldnt recommend a stop-gap engine management fix. Sure stock rods will work, and quality aftermarket ones are expensive, but the bottom line is that when it is my reputation or my friends dollar on the line, the money must be spent where it will do the most good- and I have NEVER had a customer/friend/racer decide not to spend the money when it is explained what needs to be spent where to get what they want. They either re-think the project or re-arrange their budget.It is never ever a disservice to the customer to tell them they have to either be more reaslistic with their goals, or come up with more cash, or make cuts somewhere in a non-essential area(like maybe the 1200 buck each Recaro heated seats). That kind of thinking- that it is better to give the customer just barely good enough rather than to possibly lose them or maybe they have to wait a bit longer to afford what they need- is the kind of thinking that leads to blown engines and missed deadlines and angry people-
Again- just my opinion

Chris Prack

I have to agree with Fusionsport. Motec has made the pricing on their ECU's much more competetive in recent months. They are not difficult or expensive to tune if the tuner is at all familiar with the system. Most of the systems our shop has done requires no more than one day at the dyno. The "prop up" systems are just that. I have a customer with an ARC II and I've had to go to the chasis dyno 2 to 3 times in the past season to keep the car drivable. He is going to convert to Motec for next season.

As far as aftermarket turbos, we will soon be releasing a "new" turbo group for Porsches. One of these units that would be most comparable to a T3/4 will make 10-15% more power at the same boost level and fit under the intake of a 944T without having to be a fabricator to make it fit. As soon as I have dyno charts they will be on our website.

Huntley Racing

As I said we believe in giving the consumer 'OPTIONS' not taking a 'ONE SIZE FITS ALL' approach. As an example, in addition to our 'piggy back' systems we just released our new bolt-on, pre-wired, EFI for 944 based cars. These come in two versions: A batch fired version like the Motec M4 but with more features and far better software. Also the sequential system like the M48 with nice features like closed loop twin knock sensing, wideband O2 self-tuning, traction control, launch control, no-lift-shift, etc.... Again OPTIONS! Here is a pic of one installed in a race 911 we just finished for next season with our EVO3 data aquisition and a custom carbon fiber mount.

<a href="http://www.archcartpro.com/users/dkhajavi/HR-EFI.html" target="_blank">http://www.archcartpro.com/users/dkhajavi/HR-EFI.html</a>

fusionsport

So why muck about with MAF conversions? you will never convince me that a PROPERLY informed and EDUCATED customer would EVER use a MAF and fuel enrichment gadget when for NEARLY the same money they can have a programable engine management unit. And that is what it is all about- doing the best by the customer. Notice i gave the MOTEC as an example- I also recommend the DTA system, and there are several other good ecu's about that can be had for a reasonable amount. Now to answer the street car issue i know is coming- a properly developed "chip"- dyno tuned to the specific car, is an acceptable alternative where the car is pretty much stock or might be returned to near stock at a later date- using a MAF conversion in that case is ok- as long as we are talking about a street car that will occasionally be used on the track and has to meet a visual emissions inspection- but even then the cost of the MAF conversions is near enough to a simple ecu swap that I fail to see much point in using them. I am a dealer for DTA, and work with a MOTEC dealer, and as I said earlier I have worked with virtually every EFI system you can name- I have also had to sort a few cars with the dodgy intercept computers and fuel enrichment devices- and anyone who can do simple math can sort out that by the time you muck about getting those stop-gap devices working- you could have bought and paid for a reasonably priced engine management system. NO MOTEC isnt cheap- but I maintain there is only two alternatives for a track car, or a monster street car- a custom burned chip, or a programable ecu. The one thing I might point out is that no one has anything bad to say about MOTEC- other than it is expensive- but then that statement is usually followed by- ITS WORTH IT

Huntley Racing

I think we are going to have to agree to disagree on this one. There are hidden benefits other than the obvious power advantage of a piggy-back MAF or MAP conversion vs. chips only upgrades. One big factor is the inherent safety of a system, which reads flow increases across the RPM range vs. the AFM topping out and switching the car to RPM based tables. If a customer gets too much boost the 'chips' car will go lean, with an MAF/MAP kit the car will see more load and add fuel. Further, the reality is that most consumers are changing the car set-up frequently requiring re-tuning. With 'chips' this becomes an expensive proposition with large time delays too. I don't expect to convert you but certainly think that there is a place for these types of devices if done properly and not expected to run a full out effort race car. These are intended for light to moderately modified cars only! Those that try to power a heavily modified car with piggy backs are barking up the wrong tree, which I think we can agree on. Good luck!