Good bye 911 (after 30 year non stop), hello Panamera !
05-25-2017, 04:32 AM
#271
A bit OT the whole discussion... Even though I agree there are worse polluters VW put a lot of criminal energy (and money) into the writing of DME firmware checking for up to seven (!) emission cycles to reduce emissions accordingly. Researchers found out that modified DME equipped cars left the VW factories from January 2009 (Golf, Passat) until October 2016 (EOS): https://www.ieee-security.org/TC/SP2017/papers/101.pdf - I don't think any of these coal plants or high sea ships circumvented existing laws to comparable extent or conspired like VW did.
As an owner of a car that VW refuses to buy back (since I'm in Europe) I am quite pissed of the fact they want to modify my DME without any proof I will get the same functioning (they can't), same longevity (I'll probably have problems with clogged EGR), same fuel consumption (increased use of EGR means increase of CO2 and definitely increased AdBlue consumption).
As an owner of a car that VW refuses to buy back (since I'm in Europe) I am quite pissed of the fact they want to modify my DME without any proof I will get the same functioning (they can't), same longevity (I'll probably have problems with clogged EGR), same fuel consumption (increased use of EGR means increase of CO2 and definitely increased AdBlue consumption).
05-25-2017, 05:19 PM
#272
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
May be a bit of OT, ..but still, an excellent point !
It is interesting : you have one of "those", I'm highly convinced that these are excellent cars, with an excellent engine, or : why would you like to sell it back to VW ?
Is the fact that the "real ?????" NOx emissions is larger than what you have read in the original spec, ..and after reading that the NOx was so low, it was one of the MAIN reason that you did originally acquired this car ?
This been said, I'm saying (my opinion) that the EPA is a ransom against VW, because :
Beside the fact that I'm convinced that not only Volkswagen did this "trick", many others did it too, I consider that the EPA put the limit (0.043 gr per km) so low, that without crazy expensive technical solutions, this limit is very hard to be achieved by small displacement Diesel engines, or, to do it, it would penalize the client that would acquire such car, by a too high price for such category of car.
Basically, (imo) the deal was to pass the test, and these cars did pass the test. If the EPA were not able to do better tests, then, they should not cry today.
Now, how “stupid” is the difference ? It looks like the real NOx of these cars were in the range of : Lowest “real” measure : 0.34 gr/km, and Largest : 1.5 gr/km
(Side note: It is pretty crazy to have such HUGE spread in the "real" tests, i.e.: from 0.34 up 1.5. Imo, this is just a proof that the "real" tests are pure "b.s.")
..or an average of 0.92 gr/km, compared to the required 0.043 gr/km.
Yes, 0.877 gr/km more, ..if you drive in the exact same conditions as the test, when engine is at optimal conditions (i.e.: engine temperature, altitude, etc..)
Now, anyway, where it also becomes a real joke, is that such emission depend how you drive the car. We all know that for example that specified gas consumption, would NEVER match your case depending the way you drive. (Also, if you use this car for small distances, i.e.: short errands, etc, or in altitude, ..this will be also VERY different !)
Or, ..in whatever cases that you can think about, these will never be true specs.
To be back a bit in the topic, the Panamera that I own has a PDK transmission, i.e.: it shifts driven by a computer. Whatever mode you chose during your drive, each time you start it up, it is back to normal.
In normal mode, you leave your garage in the 2nd gear, and 200 meters later, ..you are in 7th !
Great, you bought a Porsche, you paid for a 400hp car, and in the normal mode, the default mode puts you in a shifting mode that gives you the feeling of having the power of a “35 hp” machine.
Why ?
What do you think ??
In my opinion, the answer is very easy : that’s the way it is, ..to pass the tests with the lowest values !
Or, do you really think such “process” is any better than the “VW Diesel gate” ??
In my opinion, NO, not at all, this is ALL pure 100% “b.s.”.
(For sure, not ONLY Porsche do "that", ..THEY ALL do it !)
If the legislator (of any countries) REALLY wants to fight pollution, he should really think, and instead, should start the work against the big polluters first. Attacking the small ones with false arguments that have very hard time, (or better : have no way) to defend, and, in the view of the legislator are “just good” to pay taxes, like the EPA and the other governments organization are doing, is first simply not efficient at all and extremely vicious.
A good example of how dirty and insane the systems are : In Switzerland, taxes over taxes is not legal and prohibited by law. Since decades, in the gasoline prices, there are government taxes on it, (like in most of the countries of the World). But, in Switzerland, we also have a federal sales tax (called TVA), and this is applying also in every liter of gasoline sold.
Yes, since decade, every one that buy gasoline in my country pay the TVA, that is been computed on the price, ..that include a huge percent of taxes !
Purely a tax over taxes illegal case.
(Yes, I have very little respect for government that behave like that.)
But, it is strange, it looks that I’m almost alone thinking about all of the (above). May be I’m a real stupid guy.
It is interesting : you have one of "those", I'm highly convinced that these are excellent cars, with an excellent engine, or : why would you like to sell it back to VW ?
Is the fact that the "real ?????" NOx emissions is larger than what you have read in the original spec, ..and after reading that the NOx was so low, it was one of the MAIN reason that you did originally acquired this car ?
This been said, I'm saying (my opinion) that the EPA is a ransom against VW, because :
Beside the fact that I'm convinced that not only Volkswagen did this "trick", many others did it too, I consider that the EPA put the limit (0.043 gr per km) so low, that without crazy expensive technical solutions, this limit is very hard to be achieved by small displacement Diesel engines, or, to do it, it would penalize the client that would acquire such car, by a too high price for such category of car.
Basically, (imo) the deal was to pass the test, and these cars did pass the test. If the EPA were not able to do better tests, then, they should not cry today.
Now, how “stupid” is the difference ? It looks like the real NOx of these cars were in the range of : Lowest “real” measure : 0.34 gr/km, and Largest : 1.5 gr/km
(Side note: It is pretty crazy to have such HUGE spread in the "real" tests, i.e.: from 0.34 up 1.5. Imo, this is just a proof that the "real" tests are pure "b.s.")
..or an average of 0.92 gr/km, compared to the required 0.043 gr/km.
Yes, 0.877 gr/km more, ..if you drive in the exact same conditions as the test, when engine is at optimal conditions (i.e.: engine temperature, altitude, etc..)
Now, anyway, where it also becomes a real joke, is that such emission depend how you drive the car. We all know that for example that specified gas consumption, would NEVER match your case depending the way you drive. (Also, if you use this car for small distances, i.e.: short errands, etc, or in altitude, ..this will be also VERY different !)
Or, ..in whatever cases that you can think about, these will never be true specs.
To be back
a bit in the topic, the Panamera that I own has a PDK transmission, i.e.: it shifts driven by a computer. Whatever mode you chose during your drive, each time you start it up, it is back to normal.In normal mode, you leave your garage in the 2nd gear, and 200 meters later, ..you are in 7th !
Great, you bought a Porsche, you paid for a 400hp car, and in the normal mode, the default mode puts you in a shifting mode that gives you the feeling of having the power of a “35 hp” machine.
Why ?
What do you think ??
In my opinion, the answer is very easy : that’s the way it is, ..to pass the tests with the lowest values !
Or, do you really think such “process” is any better than the “VW Diesel gate” ??
In my opinion, NO, not at all, this is ALL pure 100% “b.s.”.
(For sure, not ONLY Porsche do "that", ..THEY ALL do it !)
If the legislator (of any countries) REALLY wants to fight pollution, he should really think, and instead, should start the work against the big polluters first. Attacking the small ones with false arguments that have very hard time, (or better : have no way) to defend, and, in the view of the legislator are “just good” to pay taxes, like the EPA and the other governments organization are doing, is first simply not efficient at all and extremely vicious.
A good example of how dirty and insane the systems are : In Switzerland, taxes over taxes is not legal and prohibited by law. Since decades, in the gasoline prices, there are government taxes on it, (like in most of the countries of the World). But, in Switzerland, we also have a federal sales tax (called TVA), and this is applying also in every liter of gasoline sold.
Yes, since decade, every one that buy gasoline in my country pay the TVA, that is been computed on the price, ..that include a huge percent of taxes !
Purely a tax over taxes illegal case.
(Yes, I have very little respect for government that behave like that.)
But, it is strange, it looks that I’m almost alone thinking about all of the (above). May be I’m a real stupid guy.
Last edited by GVA-SFO; 06-11-2017 at 05:02 AM.
05-31-2017, 01:21 AM
#274
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Yes, for sure, this was a VERY great engine, but with such stupid rules, the legislators are simply killing the use of such great engines, that were really very efficient.
Such political action push in the direction of not using Diesel engines, in a World where all car engines are in a downsize trend.
This politic is absurd, as when you put a barrel of oil in the front of a refinery, there are simply no way to produce gasoline ..without producing Diesel !
Does the legislator idea is to dig a big hole somewhere and put the Diesel back in Earth, ..as reserve for our descendants ?
Such political action push in the direction of not using Diesel engines, in a World where all car engines are in a downsize trend.
This politic is absurd, as when you put a barrel of oil in the front of a refinery, there are simply no way to produce gasoline ..without producing Diesel !
Does the legislator idea is to dig a big hole somewhere and put the Diesel back in Earth, ..as reserve for our descendants ?
05-31-2017, 03:26 AM
#275
Oh, the downsize trend has reversed. All those V2 0.6l engines that cost a fortune to develop, never had any advantage in real driving scenarios but met the emissions targets when tested with European testing cycles - these engines are shelved now.
11-21-2017, 02:20 AM
#276
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Hello Everybody,
Long time !
It is true that I let this topic a bit on the side, ..as I was real p..off to have lost all the picture thanks to the change of policies of PhotoBucket, where I had these picture uploaded !
And, as you know, for some recent post, I can re-upload these somewhere else, ..but for the old post, we, at Rennlist cannot edit the old posts, so, no way to change and makes these photos being back !
Do I'm the only one in such a case ?
Should I "worry" and try to re-upload these photos, ..or simply give up ?
Frankly, I do not know. I would be happy to read what you think. Finally, this topic was about an "old" Panamera model, may be there is no interest anymore to read about it today.
Would be happy to read from you before anything else !
PS: I still have this car, ..but want to change it against a Turbo one, ..but NOT a 2017 !
I want to stick with a car that do NOT have what I call the "new gen glass buttons", ..that I frankly hate.
(It makes me think about these new restaurants, where you have to order via "glass button screens", and then, even worse, to eat with that dam screen in the fornt of you, ..showing advertisings !)
May be after 64,340 views, (many thanks to all of you) we are coming close to the end, ..like an old 16 bit machine, that is able to address a max of 65'535 slots of memory !
Long time !
It is true that I let this topic a bit on the side, ..as I was real p..off to have lost all the picture thanks to the change of policies of PhotoBucket, where I had these picture uploaded !
And, as you know, for some recent post, I can re-upload these somewhere else, ..but for the old post, we, at Rennlist cannot edit the old posts, so, no way to change and makes these photos being back !
Do I'm the only one in such a case ?
Should I "worry" and try to re-upload these photos, ..or simply give up ?
Frankly, I do not know. I would be happy to read what you think. Finally, this topic was about an "old" Panamera model, may be there is no interest anymore to read about it today.
Would be happy to read from you before anything else !
PS: I still have this car, ..but want to change it against a Turbo one, ..but NOT a 2017 !
I want to stick with a car that do NOT have what I call the "new gen glass buttons", ..that I frankly hate.
(It makes me think about these new restaurants, where you have to order via "glass button screens", and then, even worse, to eat with that dam screen in the fornt of you, ..showing advertisings !)
May be after 64,340 views, (many thanks to all of you) we are coming close to the end, ..like an old 16 bit machine, that is able to address a max of 65'535 slots of memory !
12-09-2017, 10:51 AM
#278
Instructor
Like you, I have no interest in the newest Panamera, or any vehicle, that has fewer and fewer physical buttons, switches, *****, etc., to control the vehicle. I am very happy with my 2013 Panamera GTS and will continue to be for some time. But I feel like my next vehicles will be older rather than newer...depends on the needs at that time, as the 2 dogs and room for "stuff" dictated the Panamera this time versus the 911's I had been eyeing, lol. But I am going the right direction...from Cayenne S, to Panamera GTS, to.....? 
They are getting smaller, and sportier, haha.
Actually for our house, without going out and buying another "play" car, the Panamera is really the perfect vehicle.
They are getting smaller, and sportier, haha. Actually for our house, without going out and buying another "play" car, the Panamera is really the perfect vehicle.
12-11-2017, 09:11 AM
#280
Agree my PGTS (2014) will not be replaced with the next generation model. This one fits my needs perfectly and is a pleasure to drive. I have no desire for the latest technology.
12-20-2017, 02:28 AM
#281
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Well, beside your writing (above), one fact seems to be clear : I was looking to the usual "previous model" price going down, as I'm still actively watch for a 2015-2016 low miles Panamera Turbo, feeling that **MANY** will upgrade to 17/18 model and have a lot of choice in the market, but : no way Jose !
Prices and choice remain tough
(i.e.: I still simply did no found the ones that I like, OK, ..yes, I'm picky with the colors and options that I want) !
Prices and choice remain tough
(i.e.: I still simply did no found the ones that I like, OK, ..yes, I'm picky with the colors and options that I want) !
01-31-2018, 12:51 AM
#282
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
..A VERY interesting article about ..Turbo or not Turbo !!!!
For example, thinking about the new 911, ..or the Panamera S and 4S, that have been emasculate of 2 cylinders, ..just for a B.S. !
Read :
https://carbuzz.com/news/this-is-why...onomy-is-a-lie
While going without any doubt into the Electric cars, I keep loving to drive a Normally Aspirated V8, that really becomes a animal in the way to be extinct soon.
Sure, I like the CTT of my wife, more power, but still, ..it is "different" !
For example, thinking about the new 911, ..or the Panamera S and 4S, that have been emasculate of 2 cylinders, ..just for a B.S. !
Read :
https://carbuzz.com/news/this-is-why...onomy-is-a-lie
While going without any doubt into the Electric cars, I keep loving to drive a Normally Aspirated V8, that really becomes a animal in the way to be extinct soon.
Sure, I like the CTT of my wife, more power, but still, ..it is "different" !
03-28-2018, 08:31 PM
#283
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Well, ..about "dieselgate", that remain in my opinion nothing like a huge scam, ..intended at probably one of the rare car companies that would have been able to pay such "fee", we can read things like :
https://www.bootpruitt.com/
Why I still do think that it was a huge scam, is simply because NOT only VW was doing "that", but a LOT of the "others" did too.
And for sure, the total NOX amount related to the VW dieselgate is simply ridiculously low, ..compared for example to the amount of NOX of the US coal burning power plants !
Anyway, interesting to read more about the guy that was behind this horrible affair
https://www.bootpruitt.com/
Why I still do think that it was a huge scam, is simply because NOT only VW was doing "that", but a LOT of the "others" did too.
And for sure, the total NOX amount related to the VW dieselgate is simply ridiculously low, ..compared for example to the amount of NOX of the US coal burning power plants !
Anyway, interesting to read more about the guy that was behind this horrible affair
03-28-2018, 08:48 PM
#284
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
To be back on topic, i still did not sold this Panamera, and still do tours, loving to do so, with it.
Now about 87'000 miles with it, or more than 100'000 km driven since I got it.
(Changed the battery recently, and also the brakes on each corner.)
Nothing new, still trying to upgrade it against 2014 or 15 Turbo, ..but still havent found the car and the deal to make it !
Now about 87'000 miles with it, or more than 100'000 km driven since I got it.
(Changed the battery recently, and also the brakes on each corner.)
Nothing new, still trying to upgrade it against 2014 or 15 Turbo, ..but still havent found the car and the deal to make it !
03-30-2018, 07:38 PM
#285
Burning Brakes
Great thread, thanks for the up date, glad to hear she's still going strong..