Cautionary Tale of Oil Leak (timing cover)
06-05-2019, 12:21 AM
#77
In reading through all the threads, I found the following:
16 TT
17 S
16 S
17 GTS
15 (PSEE's ride)
and what ever black sheep Spyder drives.
There is no rhymn or reason here. Leakages are coming from all years and all models. However, I saw no base models having leaks in my readings. I might have missed one or two, but the data still holds: All models can be prone to leakage at any time and at any mileage...
16 TT
17 S
16 S
17 GTS
15 (PSEE's ride)
and what ever black sheep Spyder drives.
There is no rhymn or reason here. Leakages are coming from all years and all models. However, I saw no base models having leaks in my readings. I might have missed one or two, but the data still holds: All models can be prone to leakage at any time and at any mileage...
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russw (08-09-2020)
06-06-2019, 02:47 PM
#80
So, if my post is correct in that timing chain cover leakage (Porsche's Macan broken timing chain bolt fiasco...), it's happening on all models and all years ( I think I already said that, didn't I?), my next question is this: how are the bolts getting broken?
I have a theory: First, assumptions:
1. The bolts are installed by a human.
2. Not by machine.
3. The torque tool the technician is using is calibrated to a set torque
4. All bolts require the same tension
The faults with the above scenario as to why htis is happening:
1. Some holes are bored into the heads and 'end' somewhere deep
2. Some holes are pass-through. Like a flange that's been tapped.
3. The torque gun they are using is SET to a particular value
4. NOT ALL BOLTS REQUIRE THE SAME TORQUE
5. SOME BOLTS REQUIRE MORE TORQUE - Because IMO... due to a difference in obtaining the same effect of compression to mate to the opposing surface
6. SOME BOLTS REQUIRE LESS TORQUE - Because IMO... due to a difference in obtaining the same effect of compression to mate to the opposing surface
7. The possibility of requiring a particular bolt-on sequence very similar to installing a head on an engine to ensure the proper seal.
Think of the same mentality required to installing some heads on a block. If you don't follow the proper torque sequence, you can blow the head gasket or warp the heads. Same is true in this case.... The tming chain covers are being rushed threw assembly lines to meet the demands of the Macan in general. Shortcuts are being made. This issue is no worse than the first few years of the e46 M3's with the connecting rod bearing recall issues that yours truly had to deal with in owning three of them.
I just wish Porsche would publicly state this is a problem they're investigating, but I doubt it. Most owners will never notice. Future owners will ignore it once out of warranty. Years to come it will be touted as something to check for before you buy a Macan.
Just my opinion... I could be wrong. - 500 Pound Gorilla
I have a theory: First, assumptions:
1. The bolts are installed by a human.
2. Not by machine.
3. The torque tool the technician is using is calibrated to a set torque
4. All bolts require the same tension
The faults with the above scenario as to why htis is happening:
1. Some holes are bored into the heads and 'end' somewhere deep
2. Some holes are pass-through. Like a flange that's been tapped.
3. The torque gun they are using is SET to a particular value
4. NOT ALL BOLTS REQUIRE THE SAME TORQUE
5. SOME BOLTS REQUIRE MORE TORQUE - Because IMO... due to a difference in obtaining the same effect of compression to mate to the opposing surface
6. SOME BOLTS REQUIRE LESS TORQUE - Because IMO... due to a difference in obtaining the same effect of compression to mate to the opposing surface
7. The possibility of requiring a particular bolt-on sequence very similar to installing a head on an engine to ensure the proper seal.
Think of the same mentality required to installing some heads on a block. If you don't follow the proper torque sequence, you can blow the head gasket or warp the heads. Same is true in this case.... The tming chain covers are being rushed threw assembly lines to meet the demands of the Macan in general. Shortcuts are being made. This issue is no worse than the first few years of the e46 M3's with the connecting rod bearing recall issues that yours truly had to deal with in owning three of them.
I just wish Porsche would publicly state this is a problem they're investigating, but I doubt it. Most owners will never notice. Future owners will ignore it once out of warranty. Years to come it will be touted as something to check for before you buy a Macan.
Just my opinion... I could be wrong. - 500 Pound Gorilla
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russw (08-09-2020)
06-06-2019, 05:02 PM
#81
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Summary:
Further I speculate that the likely root cause, in order of what I think most likely to least likely, is;
- materials substitution due to "bean counters" late in the design cycle, or perhaps coincident with manufacturing start, with no engineering sign-off. In other words, the torque procedure was originally based upon a fastener made of Alloy X and bean counters substituted Alloy Y and didn't tell anyone in Engineering and/or no one cared what Engineering said about the Alloy Change.
- some sort of human error on torque specification or procedure (at any point from design to data entry) that wound its way into the factory system and workshop manual documentation:
* it could have been a design error, but design reviews are supposed to find this type of error. And so is pre-production testing. So, not likely in my book.
* the torque procedure might have been 'fat-fingered' between design and the manufacturing system.
I would place my bet on the root cause occurring after pre-production testing and before production-start. I tend to place blame too easily on bean counters so I give human error equal odds.
FWIW...
I doubt it was a design error: the leaks would have been seen in pre-production testing.
I doubt it was an assembly error: I've been to the factory and watched them make engines.
06-06-2019, 06:44 PM
#82
I stand by my assessment. As far as four cylinder models, I don't care about the size of a of a jockstrap or a large bucket. Based on this thread only!, I saw no 4 cylinder stories of leakage. If they use the same bolts and are done the same way using the same methodology of installation, I predict we'll see a few of these too.
Again, just like you, we all have our theories. Only time will tell if either or both or neither are correct. But, until then, it's just our opinions isn't it?
Again, just like you, we all have our theories. Only time will tell if either or both or neither are correct. But, until then, it's just our opinions isn't it?
06-11-2019, 05:53 PM
#83
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Update on my car. Apparently Porsche “updated their warranty” and my leak is not covered under warranty yet because it doesn’t drip or pour out fast enough. The technician got “in trouble” for originally telling me about the leak and was told he wasn’t supposed to.
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russw (08-09-2020)
06-11-2019, 06:09 PM
#84
WOW! That is the exact OPPOSITE of what Porsche should be doing to address this problem.
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russw (08-09-2020)
06-11-2019, 06:31 PM
#85
Drifting
What?! That’s interesting. I had my oil changed about 2 weeks ago and my dealer tech gladly did a thorough leak inspection and talked to me about the problem at length.
06-11-2019, 08:01 PM
#86
I smell class action lawsuit IF this is correct.
06-11-2019, 10:07 PM
#87
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Yep. This may be the 95B equivalent of IMS except without the catastrophic results. Although, if we add the short-lived transfer cases it adds up. Still not as expensive as a grenaded engine. Probably.
06-11-2019, 10:20 PM
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OTOH, we have one - still visible - report of this 'message.' It may be that single dealer watching warranty claims. Need more N in the data set.
06-12-2019, 09:34 AM
#90
Some fifty (50) instances of this issue have been recorded over at:
That's a significant number (though minor when compared to the total number of Macans sold). Of course
not everyone participated in online forums, etc.
That's a significant number (though minor when compared to the total number of Macans sold). Of course
not everyone participated in online forums, etc.