The Tempest in the Turtle Pond
02-20-2008, 09:29 AM
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The Tempest in the Turtle Pond
Been doing a lot of thinking, typing and talking over the last few days. And I want to share the outcome. Forgive me for the length, but I want to be clear.
First a little background for those of you who haven’t been around Rennlist since the beginning of this decade.
I started “Hey Wait For Me” Racing when I switched from the Skippy Series to PCA Club Racing in 2003. At first it was just myself, and a couple of good buddies from racing in the Chicago area.
Then an amazing thing happened. I put the team name in my signature. And through the wonder of Rennlist, the team grew to astonishing proportions.
Cars started showing up at tracks around the country with Turtles on them. Through John D’s efforts, Kevin Buckler’s TRG car showed up at Le Mans with our Turtle on the wing. The team itself took a trip to Le Mans the following year.
And we laughed. At our track exploits. At our skills, or lack thereof. At ourselves.
What I’ve loved about it all was that it showed the guys and gals running mid-pack were having just as much fun as the one at the front.
And I’ve loved the camaraderie, and how much we’ve enjoyed each others company. Both in person at the track. And in cyberspace. Not long ago, John D gave us the gift of a corner of Rennlist to continue the fun.
We’re a collection of very clever and witty people, and the humor extends far beyond the track and paddock.
And ultimately, I believe the team just wants to have fun, to paraphrase Cyndi Lauper.
Over the last few weeks, a storm’s been brewing, and it broke on Saturday as a full-fledged ****-storm… errr… Tempest.
At the eye of it was how relate to one another, and in what directions our fun should go.
Bill Sisco had a very thought provoking post a few weeks ago, when the storm clouds first started gathering. It was about humor; what was perceived by individuals, and the group, as offensive; and how a forum like ours works it all out. I’ve been thinking about it a lot since then. (Bill, I can’t tell you how many times I’ve re-read your post).
I have a sister with Down Syndrome. A good number of you know that... I suspect many don’t. I tend to cringe when I see “retard” or a “Short Bus” joke.
I know each of you have your own sensitive subjects, or matters, that are close to your heart. When someone jokes about it, you cringe. In fact, we no doubt have as many sensitive areas as we have teammates.
With a wide-ranging humor-based board, the jokes sometimes goes into one of those areas. And what is extremely funny to some, can be extremely offensive to another.
It’s a tribute to all of you that, over the years, we’ve had a whole lot of laughter here, and very little cringing.
On Saturday, amidst much thunder and lightning, I banned VR. Not for the use of “retard”, but for comments on the way Mark and I were moderating the direction humor takes on this board.
Since then, through the efforts of HWFM’s own version of Condoleezza Rice – Bull, Mark, Dave and I have had a three-day e-mail discussion.
I’ve come to believe that we each were acting in good faith, but for a variety of reasons, things went down a path that no really wanted to travel.
As I look back, I think there were many misreads, misconceptions, misunderstandings and yes, mistakes, over the course of these events.
For my part, I’m going to be more direct in the future. I think some of the cues I gave were too subtle or were missed. I should have just sent a very specific PM about why the fun should go in another direction. I’m now convinced a little very direct communication, the kind Dave, Mark, Condi and I have shared over the last two days, would have been a much better approach. And would have resolved any issues without the Turtle Pond Tempest.
At the time Dave said we needed a set of rules.
Mark’s pointed out that we already have a good set of rules. John D wrote them. They are on the home page of Rennlist.
Of course, our forum is a little different than the rest of RL, in that we center around humor and laughter as much as Porsches and on-track stuff. If we start applying additional rules, saying this subject is a bad area, it will never end. Every member will have their own taboo area based on their sensitivities. It will become PC absurdity.
Everyone’s going to have a different idea of exactly what is appropriate humor. It’s not black and white. It’s shades of gray. And that’s ok by me.
There are no definitive rules for the HWFMR Forum. But there are a couple guidelines.
If decency, common sense and respect for each other underlie what we post, we aren’t going to have many problems.
Sophisticated humor is always better than crude and crass, but sometimes crude and crass can be really funny. It can also be explosive, so best to keep the previous paragraph in mind when taking a joke in that direction.
No doubt what is funny to most may still offend some. Bill spoke eloquently that the group will likely police what goes too far. In many cases. That will work. In some it won’t. For any of a variety of reasons, people won’t want to speak up.
That's when Mark’s post from Saturday becomes so very relevant.
Sometimes throwing peanuts is raucous fun. Sometimes it can really annoy people. And the raucous turns to rancor.
At a point, and that point varies from instance to instance, the bar owner, bartenders, bouncers, whatever, need to step in a say, this is going too far. Knock it off. Yeah, there are no rules on the wall about how many peanuts can be thrown. The number will vary. The management decides how many is too many.
In the analogy, I like to think of John D as the owner, Mark and I are behind the bar, and Bonni is the bouncer (just cause that sounds funny).
To Dave’s point, Mark, Bonni and I need to be very clear when it’s time to stop throwing the peanuts. And we’ve also learned it’s probably best to whisper that first in the thrower’s ear via PM, rather than shout it over the din of the bar.
I don’t think this is enforcing rules retroactively, it’s just saying ‘that’s enough peanuts’. There’s a world of difference there.
This is why John pays us the exorbitant salaries to make these decisions as moderators. And this is the way we are going run the forum.
If you can live with these rather fluid guidelines, and will respond accordingly when told you’re getting to the edge, there’s a place for you here.
In our discussions, Dave’s told us he agrees, and is very comfortable with the guidelines and how we are gonna manage the bar.
Mark and I have come to understand the context in which Dave has used some words in the past.
And we’ve learned of his exceptional generousity to the handicapped and less fortunate.
Dave is a great guy. He is very funny. And we’ve been told he has a heart as huge as, well… TWS.
What’s more we’ve all learned from this. Even more so, I’ve been impressed with how we’ve resolved this, with Condi’s help, as gentlemen and true friends.
Mark, Bonni and I want Dave to be a part of Rennlist, and the HWFM Forum. And we want Dave to be a part of it again beginning today.
Welcome back, Dave.
And with that, the bar is now officially open for it’s usual raucous nonsense.
The drinks are on Bull.
First a little background for those of you who haven’t been around Rennlist since the beginning of this decade.
I started “Hey Wait For Me” Racing when I switched from the Skippy Series to PCA Club Racing in 2003. At first it was just myself, and a couple of good buddies from racing in the Chicago area.
Then an amazing thing happened. I put the team name in my signature. And through the wonder of Rennlist, the team grew to astonishing proportions.
Cars started showing up at tracks around the country with Turtles on them. Through John D’s efforts, Kevin Buckler’s TRG car showed up at Le Mans with our Turtle on the wing. The team itself took a trip to Le Mans the following year.
And we laughed. At our track exploits. At our skills, or lack thereof. At ourselves.
What I’ve loved about it all was that it showed the guys and gals running mid-pack were having just as much fun as the one at the front.
And I’ve loved the camaraderie, and how much we’ve enjoyed each others company. Both in person at the track. And in cyberspace. Not long ago, John D gave us the gift of a corner of Rennlist to continue the fun.
We’re a collection of very clever and witty people, and the humor extends far beyond the track and paddock.
And ultimately, I believe the team just wants to have fun, to paraphrase Cyndi Lauper.
Over the last few weeks, a storm’s been brewing, and it broke on Saturday as a full-fledged ****-storm… errr… Tempest.
At the eye of it was how relate to one another, and in what directions our fun should go.
Bill Sisco had a very thought provoking post a few weeks ago, when the storm clouds first started gathering. It was about humor; what was perceived by individuals, and the group, as offensive; and how a forum like ours works it all out. I’ve been thinking about it a lot since then. (Bill, I can’t tell you how many times I’ve re-read your post).
I have a sister with Down Syndrome. A good number of you know that... I suspect many don’t. I tend to cringe when I see “retard” or a “Short Bus” joke.
I know each of you have your own sensitive subjects, or matters, that are close to your heart. When someone jokes about it, you cringe. In fact, we no doubt have as many sensitive areas as we have teammates.
With a wide-ranging humor-based board, the jokes sometimes goes into one of those areas. And what is extremely funny to some, can be extremely offensive to another.
It’s a tribute to all of you that, over the years, we’ve had a whole lot of laughter here, and very little cringing.
On Saturday, amidst much thunder and lightning, I banned VR. Not for the use of “retard”, but for comments on the way Mark and I were moderating the direction humor takes on this board.
Since then, through the efforts of HWFM’s own version of Condoleezza Rice – Bull, Mark, Dave and I have had a three-day e-mail discussion.
I’ve come to believe that we each were acting in good faith, but for a variety of reasons, things went down a path that no really wanted to travel.
As I look back, I think there were many misreads, misconceptions, misunderstandings and yes, mistakes, over the course of these events.
For my part, I’m going to be more direct in the future. I think some of the cues I gave were too subtle or were missed. I should have just sent a very specific PM about why the fun should go in another direction. I’m now convinced a little very direct communication, the kind Dave, Mark, Condi and I have shared over the last two days, would have been a much better approach. And would have resolved any issues without the Turtle Pond Tempest.
At the time Dave said we needed a set of rules.
Mark’s pointed out that we already have a good set of rules. John D wrote them. They are on the home page of Rennlist.
Of course, our forum is a little different than the rest of RL, in that we center around humor and laughter as much as Porsches and on-track stuff. If we start applying additional rules, saying this subject is a bad area, it will never end. Every member will have their own taboo area based on their sensitivities. It will become PC absurdity.
Everyone’s going to have a different idea of exactly what is appropriate humor. It’s not black and white. It’s shades of gray. And that’s ok by me.
There are no definitive rules for the HWFMR Forum. But there are a couple guidelines.
If decency, common sense and respect for each other underlie what we post, we aren’t going to have many problems.
Sophisticated humor is always better than crude and crass, but sometimes crude and crass can be really funny. It can also be explosive, so best to keep the previous paragraph in mind when taking a joke in that direction.
No doubt what is funny to most may still offend some. Bill spoke eloquently that the group will likely police what goes too far. In many cases. That will work. In some it won’t. For any of a variety of reasons, people won’t want to speak up.
That's when Mark’s post from Saturday becomes so very relevant.
Someone (unfortunately I don't recall who) had a great analogy about Rennlist. Maybe it will help understand why Rennlist does so well without a bunch of formal rules.
This place is like a neighborhood bar. We all come in from time to time to enjoy the environment. We don't need a bunch of formal rules and, in fact, each forum develops it's own personality.
Now occasionally some jerk comes in and starts a fist fight - kind of like the way GhettoRacer came in. We don't need a big sign stating no fighting to know that behavior is not appropriate. We put up with it for a bit, but mostly because he was so bad at it and was amusing in his attempts to fight the entire bar.
We have some fun. Sometimes we throw peanuts at each other. Sometimes we throw paper coasters too. Sometimes we throw stuff that we shouldn't throw and the bar owner or the bouncers rap us on the knuckles and tell us to stop that. I have personally had my knuckles whacked a couple of times - I have apologized and adjusted my behavior in the bar THAT I DO NOT OWN.
Sometimes someone throws peanuts and it is a fun little game. But then they keep throwing peanuts all night long each and every time they come into the bar. It get annoying and changes the personality of the bar to something the owner does not want. Now the owner and his bouncers should not even be bothered with trying to write rules that define how often and how many peanuts you can throw. But it is appropriate to tell the person they are tossing too many and they should back off.
Most of us who have been around Rennlist for a long time have seen this adjustment and respond when we are the offending party. Just because part of the patrons think it is still funny to keep throwing peanuts does not make it right.
We exist as a social structure with fuzzy rules, just like most of society. We co-exist by constantly redefining the rules with a general understanding. That is what we are really talking about here. If someone feels they need firm and clear rules, then clearly Rennlist is not the right place for that.
This place is like a neighborhood bar. We all come in from time to time to enjoy the environment. We don't need a bunch of formal rules and, in fact, each forum develops it's own personality.
Now occasionally some jerk comes in and starts a fist fight - kind of like the way GhettoRacer came in. We don't need a big sign stating no fighting to know that behavior is not appropriate. We put up with it for a bit, but mostly because he was so bad at it and was amusing in his attempts to fight the entire bar.
We have some fun. Sometimes we throw peanuts at each other. Sometimes we throw paper coasters too. Sometimes we throw stuff that we shouldn't throw and the bar owner or the bouncers rap us on the knuckles and tell us to stop that. I have personally had my knuckles whacked a couple of times - I have apologized and adjusted my behavior in the bar THAT I DO NOT OWN.
Sometimes someone throws peanuts and it is a fun little game. But then they keep throwing peanuts all night long each and every time they come into the bar. It get annoying and changes the personality of the bar to something the owner does not want. Now the owner and his bouncers should not even be bothered with trying to write rules that define how often and how many peanuts you can throw. But it is appropriate to tell the person they are tossing too many and they should back off.
Most of us who have been around Rennlist for a long time have seen this adjustment and respond when we are the offending party. Just because part of the patrons think it is still funny to keep throwing peanuts does not make it right.
We exist as a social structure with fuzzy rules, just like most of society. We co-exist by constantly redefining the rules with a general understanding. That is what we are really talking about here. If someone feels they need firm and clear rules, then clearly Rennlist is not the right place for that.
At a point, and that point varies from instance to instance, the bar owner, bartenders, bouncers, whatever, need to step in a say, this is going too far. Knock it off. Yeah, there are no rules on the wall about how many peanuts can be thrown. The number will vary. The management decides how many is too many.
In the analogy, I like to think of John D as the owner, Mark and I are behind the bar, and Bonni is the bouncer (just cause that sounds funny).
To Dave’s point, Mark, Bonni and I need to be very clear when it’s time to stop throwing the peanuts. And we’ve also learned it’s probably best to whisper that first in the thrower’s ear via PM, rather than shout it over the din of the bar.
I don’t think this is enforcing rules retroactively, it’s just saying ‘that’s enough peanuts’. There’s a world of difference there.
This is why John pays us the exorbitant salaries to make these decisions as moderators. And this is the way we are going run the forum.
If you can live with these rather fluid guidelines, and will respond accordingly when told you’re getting to the edge, there’s a place for you here.
In our discussions, Dave’s told us he agrees, and is very comfortable with the guidelines and how we are gonna manage the bar.
Mark and I have come to understand the context in which Dave has used some words in the past.
And we’ve learned of his exceptional generousity to the handicapped and less fortunate.
Dave is a great guy. He is very funny. And we’ve been told he has a heart as huge as, well… TWS.
What’s more we’ve all learned from this. Even more so, I’ve been impressed with how we’ve resolved this, with Condi’s help, as gentlemen and true friends.
Mark, Bonni and I want Dave to be a part of Rennlist, and the HWFM Forum. And we want Dave to be a part of it again beginning today.
Welcome back, Dave.
And with that, the bar is now officially open for it’s usual raucous nonsense.
The drinks are on Bull.
02-20-2008, 10:35 AM
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Mike, I don't know you personally, but I suspect that you are a great guy. Seems to me like things took a somewhat personal turn, which is unfortunate. But.....the board and the posters did eventually work things out. You are both right.
Now let's go figure out why we're all so damn slow (except for Bull and Larry) and how we can bench race with each other to become faster.
WHO'S IN?!
P.S. I just completed my yearly review with my boss and I don't think I can tolerate anymore negativity in my life
Now let's go figure out why we're all so damn slow (except for Bull and Larry) and how we can bench race with each other to become faster.
WHO'S IN?!
P.S. I just completed my yearly review with my boss and I don't think I can tolerate anymore negativity in my life
02-20-2008, 10:40 AM
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Yay! I'm so happy y'all worked it out! Thanks for working so hard to make this such a great board guys and gals!! What a great show of character, I'm very impressed. Love ya...mean it! 
ps - I was kinda hoping you mispelled Temptress for the title.
ps - I was kinda hoping you mispelled Temptress for the title.
02-20-2008, 11:15 AM
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02-20-2008, 11:29 AM
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I am glad this all worked out. It was a lot of work and some very classy behavior BY ALL to sort it out.
I am also happy to be told I am slow - I guess I am off team probation for my past speed violations.
I am also happy to be told I am slow - I guess I am off team probation for my past speed violations.
02-20-2008, 11:37 AM
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I'm really slow -- could you go over that again?
I'm just kidding!!!!!!!
I have had the pleasure of meeting Dave and you are right -- he is a great guy and you have to be pretty darn sharp to match wits with him.
I am glad this all worked out.
- Capt. Slow -- molasses in the winter ain't got nuttin' on me!
I'm just kidding!!!!!!!
I have had the pleasure of meeting Dave and you are right -- he is a great guy and you have to be pretty darn sharp to match wits with him.
I am glad this all worked out.
- Capt. Slow -- molasses in the winter ain't got nuttin' on me!
CONGRATS, GUYS !!! Glad you were able to work this out !!! Trending Topics
02-20-2008, 12:08 PM
#8
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That was such a touching thread, it was . . . zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz . . . it was ummm . . . zzzzzz . . . great! Lol. Ah come on, you had to know that eventually I had to break the seriousness here. I saw a great sign the other day, "Worry is the thief of happiness." If that is true, then humor is the giver of happiness. So I say, cheers!!!
Later I will try and post up some "airplane ****" for you all -- that MIGHT keep Larry awake. I am going to the Robins AFB museum this afternoon (practically right across the street from our motel). That will be the most exciting thing for me during this TDY to Georgia.
Later I will try and post up some "airplane ****" for you all -- that MIGHT keep Larry awake. I am going to the Robins AFB museum this afternoon (practically right across the street from our motel). That will be the most exciting thing for me during this TDY to Georgia.
02-20-2008, 12:16 PM
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I, like many of you, have lamented the fact that this situation turned into an out of control Maelstrom.
A BIG applause to some very big people. I have seen Renn-Wars in the past that did not end well. This resolution makes me proud to be associated with you all.
I love it when mature adults use diplomacy and common sense to work through misunderstandings and disagreements.
Kudos to all.
A BIG applause to some very big people. I have seen Renn-Wars in the past that did not end well. This resolution makes me proud to be associated with you all.
I love it when mature adults use diplomacy and common sense to work through misunderstandings and disagreements.
Kudos to all.
02-20-2008, 12:21 PM
#10
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All I have to say is 
Adrienne has another hot avatar!
Maybe her & Joanne should have a competition?
Adrienne has another hot avatar!Maybe her & Joanne should have a competition?
__________________
Larry Herman
2016 Ford Transit Connect Titanium LWB
2018 Tesla Model 3 - Electricity can be fun!
Retired Club Racer & National PCA Instructor
Past Flames:
1994 RS America Club Racer
2004 GT3 Track Car
1984 911 Carrera Club Racer
1974 914/4 2.0 Track Car
CLICK HERE to see some of my ancient racing videos.
Larry Herman
2016 Ford Transit Connect Titanium LWB
2018 Tesla Model 3 - Electricity can be fun!
Retired Club Racer & National PCA Instructor
Past Flames:
1994 RS America Club Racer
2004 GT3 Track Car
1984 911 Carrera Club Racer
1974 914/4 2.0 Track Car
CLICK HERE to see some of my ancient racing videos.
02-20-2008, 12:27 PM
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Well, it seemed like a good occasion to show some personality and uniqueness. Uniquity? Uniquality...yes, that's the word. Or maybe Unicomaraderie. Sorry, too much coffee this morning. Makes me verbaliquitaminous.
02-20-2008, 01:26 PM
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As much as we don't like to be serious on this forum (especially me) I want to something seriously if I may.
I have only been posting here for a little over a year but I have lurked for quite a long time. In that time although I have met very few of you in person I feel as though I have gotten to know most of you pretty well. What I have also found is you folks are my kind of people.
When last weeks storm came to a head the thing that I could not get over was the fact that I was genuinely affected by events in cyberspace. Why did it even bother me?
I realized it was because as corny as it sounds, it is a kind of brotherhood. Losing Dave was like losing a member of that brotherhood.
I am truly glad to see that I was not the only one that was affected that way.
Mike, thanks to you and the other Mods for reaching out to bring our fellow turtle back in to the bale.
Okay, sorry for getting all mushy and serious but I felt it needed saying.
Welcome back VR!
I have only been posting here for a little over a year but I have lurked for quite a long time. In that time although I have met very few of you in person I feel as though I have gotten to know most of you pretty well. What I have also found is you folks are my kind of people.
When last weeks storm came to a head the thing that I could not get over was the fact that I was genuinely affected by events in cyberspace. Why did it even bother me?
I realized it was because as corny as it sounds, it is a kind of brotherhood. Losing Dave was like losing a member of that brotherhood.
I am truly glad to see that I was not the only one that was affected that way.
Mike, thanks to you and the other Mods for reaching out to bring our fellow turtle back in to the bale.
Okay, sorry for getting all mushy and serious but I felt it needed saying.
Welcome back VR!