m42racer

Taking no sides here, but your post does read like you do have a dog in the fight.

When you use the term BS, it immediately brings reason to question motive.

If the exhaust system does make the horse power, is this not a really good product that many would like. So why don't you work with Dundon and figure out what the differences are in testing and do this in private. Not all over the internet where the initial intention and motive is questionable.

Its such a shame that this business does not extend professional courtesy to fellow pro's like other professional fields often do.

Like my original post suggested, often this sort of thing is disguised in clever wording.

Can I ask that you get together with Dundon, get this sorted off the internet. What do you gain if you have no dog in the fight?

Rick DeMan

I think I will just step back and see what the next round of independent testing shows.
Then you all can go kill that messenger.

thigos

I completely disagree with this sentiment. I commend both Rick and Dundon for this sort of transparency, however uncomfortable it may be at times. We as the consumers are the ones who benefit from these open discussions. Much respect to both companies for not leaving the end user in the dark.

Mech33

Rick, I really commend you guys on the testing method and transparency of the results. It looks like you guys tried as hard as is reasonable to make the comparison as apples to apples as possible.

We need more testing done with this sort of methodology in the autototive industry!

Alan C.

Could that be Dog V 4.0?

John@Fabspeed

I appreciate your understanding. What opinion/feedback could we state in this thread and be taken seriously? I can't pretend there isn't an elephant in the room of us being a direct competitor of the OP that would likely overwhelm opinions of our statement, and the same goes for John over at BGB. Although a rarity, it's nice to have third parties do some thorough testing for the benefit of the community so people can have faith in the results. Heck to be honest, just saying this much may come across unfavorable in some eyes, but I'm reading this thread multiple times a day and want people to know that we are here and we do care. Although I will not post our opinions in this thread out of courtesy to the OP, anyone can feel free to give me a call personally at any time to discuss.

m42racer

This the courtesy I was eluding to.

Transparency is great, but no one here is hiding anything if I'm reading this correctly. Think about it, transparency is the vehicle of objectivity in a dispute.

Unfortunately is gets clouded by vendor verses vendor. How does this transparency help, but confuse the customer. This is why this sort of issue should be sorted between the two vendors and done so in a professional manner.

Realistically, any questioning by an end user is perfectly acceptable in my view, but when vendors use this forum to do so, possibly bring in many other motives that only confuse the end user.

This is all I suggest.

John@Fabspeed

True, although keep in mind Rick is not a manufacturer of exhaust components so would not be relevant to that statement

neanicu

m42racer,you are not solving anything here,it actually makes your statements sound like preaching rather than mediating.

The situation is simple : if one has been " in the game "...and by that I mean modifying,tuning,understanding how car management works,what " it sees "/what " it wants to see ",changing parameters,mods integration etc...then it would be easier for that person to understand why you simply can't achieve these claims from a Naturally Aspirated engine by simply changing the headers. The engine is like a lung. Eliminate a restriction and it will breathe better,but in the same time it will need more air. Why do they tell you to do deep breathing exercises after running in order to bring your heart rate down? Oxygen for your lungs,that's why...
So bring more air into the engine while eliminating exhaust restrictions and let the engine management know about the extra air,so that it can take advantage of it(make more power).
So in conclusion,that's pretty much what headers alone can bring in a naturally aspirated engine...11-12 HP. I am pretty sure you can get 6-7 of them with the stock headers by eliminating the cats.

So you want more power without caring about warranty? You need to go full banana for that and install the whole pkg. I am personally staying stock because I have learned my lesson long time ago : when modifying cars,it's not about one thing...it's a slippery slope that never stops.

Good luck!

Alan C.

Keep in mind that DeMan, Fabspeed and Dundon all compete for performance gains. So in reality you are all in the game. If one convinces another that item X is not viable but offers item Y and promotes it as a better solution then it doesn't matter if it's a brick or 2X4. You're all going after consumer dollars.

In transparency I am a Dundon customer. I've never considered DeMan, or Fabspeed.

Nick Yoskin

[QUOTE=Rick DeMan;13868957
And to the next guys running their GT4's on the Dyno, get ready for all the BS that follows when you try to simply show how it's doing. And for Jamies sake I sure hope somebody else's dyno with Dundon headers starts to look like the initial representation.[/QUOTE]



Exactly,
Rick you are not the last and/or only person to dyno text their headers. We will eventually see either way. Hopefully # are good for Dundon but if they are not I will loose all credibility especially if I start hearing excuses on dyno procedure etc......

Here is a simple question, what HP claims do other vendors claim for the GT4?

John@Fabspeed

Why would we compete against DeMan? He doesn't make exhaust components, he simply picks and chooses the best components to meet his goals regardless of brand. That's like saying Cargraphic competing against Cargraphic, or Dundon versus Dundon. Unfortunately it seems as if poor Rick here is being considered a competitor and not the third party Motorsports advocate he is for the Porsche community.

Alan C.

Maybe I can make this clearer for you. Fabspeed makes a GT4 package with a gain of 53 whp with exhaust, tune and intake for $8300. DeMan sells a 4.0 package making a gain of 45 whp at something well North of your number, I didn't call, and Dundon sells a set of headers with a peak gain of 41 whp for $4250.

As a consumer looking for a gain in hp I consider all 3 of you competing for my dollars. I don't care how you got there. I do care about a cost effective solution.

jmartpr

On the other hand.....and to add a bit of info.....DeMan package does include headers (not sure which vendor) so I guess they could be looking for ways to extract even more power from their 4.0L kit or just sell you the best header out there for those not looking to open up their engines...at least that's another way to look at DeMans interest in testing DMS headers. Just my 2 cents.....

m42racer

This thread just keeps on re enforcing my opinion that cynicism breeds unabated in this business.

As quoted by neanicu,

"" m42racer,you are not solving anything here,it actually makes your statements sound like preaching rather than mediating.""

Sir,
The only part of your post that I agree with is the bit about me preaching. Of course I am. I am hoping that whatever the differences that have been found with this 3rd party testing, this is presented in a fair and unbiased way. I am not saying it isn't, but I do question the motive when the words BS are used.

If I can ask a question to Mr DeMan, have you called Dundon to discuss your findings? Or did you just express your finding on this internet site? If the latter, why? What result did you expect other than to bring into question another vendors product? How would you feel if another vendor did this to you?

If you have called and discussed this issue with this other vendor and they gave you "the finger" responses, I guess you can then make the choice not to sell their product or go on this internet site and do as you did .

I'm not here to question the validity of any system, just to ask that certain respect is given by vendors to vendors who put themselves out there to offer us parts. Nor am I here to shoot any messenger.

Yes transparency is a wonderful thing, but there are many ways to offer this. Especially as a vendor. Often in life, the high road speaks volumes over the other way.