When you click on links to various merchants on this site and make a purchase, this can result in this site earning a commission. Affiliate programs and affiliations include, but are not limited to, the eBay Partner Network.
Does the Clubsport come with in cockpit tire temperature readings? Or is it a go by feel thing?
It has tire pressures by not tire temps. The tire pressure system is a little flakey, in that it does not like it when you start the pressures <24psi. And you typically need to start around 20 to hit a hot pressure of 29-30ish. But it does work, especially if you have tire warmers. And no, you aint running tire warmers without a crew.
Slicks are pretty easy to drive on once you are used to them. Just accelerate/brake really hard on the out lap, and dont be an idiot in the first couple of turns. End the end of lap 1, full sent it mode. Nothing is better than lap 2 on a fresh set of stickers.
so are you saying that this car (718 CS) should run Michelin and not Pirelli….
I have always used the Pirelli and liked them…
back in my motorcycle days (apples and oranges I know) I felt like Michelins wouldn’t “tell you” when they were done they just fell off….
the Pirelli would get “greasy” and start controlled sliding and tell you they were done…
the Pirelli’s did the same in past caymans I have owned…
I look forward to and appreciate your feedback?
Originally Posted by ProCoach;[url=tel:17994825
17994825]I think tires are perhaps the most important single component to lap times.
I know the driver's comfort and confidence level in any car is the single key performance indicator predicating the level of commitment required to improve.
I also believe that the adoption of sub-par tires, or tires that the car (especially a homologated package, like any of the factory built GT3 and GT4 cars) has not been SPECIFICALLY designed around, not only takes away from the experience and performance but also from the confidence the driver NEEDS in order to push incrementally and gain that performance.
While I understand the 200 TW tires are required for some budget endurance series the new cars are eligible for, to get the most benefit out of them (and to reduce the potential for thermally induced failure), significant changes will be needed to the shocks, springs, bars and alignment settings.
A GT4 car is a "package," designed and built by the manufacturer to compete against other cars worldwide built to the same homologated standard.
When the 981 GT4 ClubSport was introduced and PCA Club Racing mandated the use of the Pirelli DH in Trophy East in 2016, after the car had been designed around, optimized for and delivered with Michelins (with a lower spring rate by some margin than the Pirellis), early testing and some of the early events had a high casualty rate due to how difficult it was to keep the rear under the car. So much so, two softer spring rates were immediately introduced and implemented by the series to try and tame the car, which had shown NO signs of issues testing on the Michelins.
All I can tell you is that the car, especially this one, is a "system," a "package" that works harmoniously together. Change the tires to Pirelli DH (less so), Hoosier R7 (more so) or 200 TW (for SURE), especially without a concerted effort by a knowledgeable engineer or engineers with substantial data, is just compromising that package, inhibiting the balance and consistency of the package, damaging the performance of the package as well as hurting your investment and return.
Most drivers won't push hard enough for the car to push back, especially on DH's, but when it does, you better be ready. Black, round and rubber are not all the same.
The four contact patches are your only connection with Mother Earth...
Last edited by Moondog4224; 02-24-2022 at 10:02 PM.
I have run 981 MRs with the 2 way KWs on Pirelli DHs (slicks) and Pilot sport Cup 2s (200TW). Both work just fine with some sway bar and shock adjustments. At a 2 minute track, the Pirellis are around 6 seconds a lap faster - yes the tires make that much difference. But the Cup2s are also fun, just at a slower pace. And the Cup2s last a lot longer. You could get ~3-5 weekends out of Cup2s vs 1-2 weekends max from a slick. For reference, I tend to toss my Pirellis between heat cycle 6-8 max; at 10 they are utter junk.
For DEs, a well driven Clubsport on 200TW tires can still be one of the fastest cars in the top run group.
So a Michelin slick very well may be the best tire, but there are plenty of decent tire choices available depending on what you are after.
I think that the 718 GT4 CS is much more tolerant of different rubber than the early 981 GT4 CS, so the DH and F200 are good alternates, especially from a value perspective.
I used to do a fair bit of tire testing, and all the companies ebb and flow over the years.
If I were running a 718 GT4 CS (or an RS CS, when they come), I’d run Michelins to start with or if I was not going to do enough serious testing to optimize another make or model of tire.
But that’s just me. I really think the package, as it comes from Porsche, is optimized. Just like the 992 GT3 Cup…
__________________ -Peter Krause www.peterkrause.net www.gofasternow.com
"Combining the Art and Science of Driving Fast!"
Specializing in Professional, Private Driver Performance Evaluation and Optimization
Consultation Available Remotely and at VIRginia International Raceway
I have run 981 MRs with the 2 way KWs on Pirelli DHs (slicks) and Pilot sport Cup 2s (200TW). Both work just fine with some sway bar and shock adjustments. At a 2 minute track, the Pirellis are around 6 seconds a lap faster - yes the tires make that much difference. But the Cup2s are also fun, just at a slower pace. And the Cup2s last a lot longer. You could get ~3-5 weekends out of Cup2s vs 1-2 weekends max from a slick. For reference, I tend to toss my Pirellis between heat cycle 6-8 max; at 10 they are utter junk.
For DEs, a well driven Clubsport on 200TW tires can still be one of the fastest cars in the top run group.
So a Michelin slick very well may be the best tire, but there are plenty of decent tire choices available depending on what you are after.
‘The MR is a more tolerant spring package (and the shocks help, a lot) than as delivered. If you’re going quickly, as you are, your lifespan for the DH’s are right on the money.
I think that the 718 GT4 CS is much more tolerant of different rubber than the early 981 GT4 CS, so the DH and F200 are good alternates, especially from a value perspective.
I used to do a fair bit of tire testing, and all the companies ebb and flow over the years.
If I were running a 718 GT4 CS (or an RS CS, when they come), I’d run Michelins to start with or if I was not going to do enough serious testing to optimize another make or model of tire.
But that’s just me. I really think the package, as it comes from Porsche, is optimized. Just like the 992 GT3 Cup…
Totally. I am very much a believer of the package as designed. Yes, one can make different tires work but I would expect nontrivial number of development hours needed to make it work well.
Sidewall of the Michelin is much better than the Pirelli, 6-8 heat cycles max on both tires and Michelins drop off after 2 runs. Pirelli's are great for grip brand new but the Michelin i felt I could push a little harder due to the sidewall and the feedback it gave. This was on a 981.
I purchased a 718 Clubsport back in October of 2021 and I am still getting a used to it. I bought it to provide the safety factor that a race car provides while trying not to totally break the bank with maintenance costs. I've had it at Barber twice and headed to VIR and NCM over the next 3 weeks and so far it has been an incredible experience. I was tracking at 991.1 GT3 prior to this car and although the CS has much more complicated software and is a full blown race car, it is a great mix of being easy to use and work on while being as safe as one can get. The maintenance is similar to a street car and your not into the 100 hour rebuild metric like a cup car along with the associated costs.
For what you state that you are wanting, I can't think of a better route than a CS. Good luck!
I purchased a 718 Clubsport back in October of 2021 and I am still getting a used to it. I bought it to provide the safety factor that a race car provides while trying not to totally break the bank with maintenance costs. I've had it at Barber twice and headed to VIR and NCM over the next 3 weeks and so far it has been an incredible experience. I was tracking at 991.1 GT3 prior to this car and although the CS has much more complicated software and is a full blown race car, it is a great mix of being easy to use and work on while being as safe as one can get. The maintenance is similar to a street car and your not into the 100 hour rebuild metric like a cup car along with the associated costs.
For what you state that you are wanting, I can't think of a better route than a CS. Good luck!
I purchased a 718 Clubsport back in October of 2021 and I am still getting a used to it. I bought it to provide the safety factor that a race car provides while trying not to totally break the bank with maintenance costs. I've had it at Barber twice and headed to VIR and NCM over the next 3 weeks and so far it has been an incredible experience. I was tracking at 991.1 GT3 prior to this car and although the CS has much more complicated software and is a full blown race car, it is a great mix of being easy to use and work on while being as safe as one can get. The maintenance is similar to a street car and your not into the 100 hour rebuild metric like a cup car along with the associated costs.
For what you state that you are wanting, I can't think of a better route than a CS. Good luck!
Thanks! The factory race car safety, designed for 100% track time, driver friendly, and relatively “low” maintenance are exactly the reasons for me to consider the Clubsport. I’m okay with the 100 hours engine rebuild schedule of the RS too.
Last edited by ForeverCar; 02-26-2022 at 10:11 PM.
The original question on this thread had to do with cost and support required to run a Clubsport versus a cop car. Also throwing in the variation of the new club sport RS edition. Easy math will tell us that a car with a rebuild cycle can easily calculate the dollars per hour to operate. There was a time that I was more familiar with the rebuild cycles on the cup cars but if you start with it cost $80,000 in rebuilds every hundred hours, you can start with $800 an hour to run that car more than a Clubsport. This is applicable to both the RS Clubsport that is coming out and the cop cars of all generations. If a typical chin weekend gives you multiple sessions plus happy hour, you can see 8 to 10 hours in the car if you maximize all of your times. So the difference between running a cop car or club sport RS and a 718 club sport can be $8000 a weekend.
I personally tracked a 991.2 GT3 for quite some time. I had a half roll bar and HRE seats with a harness system to improve safety. I was running the car on Hoosiers and was pushing it fairly hard. What I was starting to find is that I was having problems with the car because it wasn’t really its intended use. Most specifically I was going through brake pads every weekend and sometimes at Sebring the inside left pad on my front tires would go very quickly. It was an issue with the ABS and trail breaking into one according to people who were supporting me. The ClubSport on the other hand just works. The car is built to be a race car and all of the systems work well together. I have found the Cosworth system to be worthless and very hard to access and operate and for that reason I have an additional data system. As far as track support is concerned unless you don’t want to check your tire pressures and fill your gas up, you do not need track sport . The car just runs and does so fairly flawlessly. If you get a version with adjustable shocks it is easy to make those adjustments yourself but you will find overtime that making minor adjustments testing and coming back does not require support. I do find that the biggest cost of running the car is the tires a good set of slicks will cost you about $3000 however I am now transitioning to the Hankook slicks which are considerably less. I am also using used racing tires from time to time. They are incredibly cheap but you really don’t know what you’re getting with them. And it’s just an experiment that I’ve been running through . At the end of it I find that a car being the 981 or the 718 that doesn’t have the rebuild cycles seem to hold their value very well because there is a lot of demand for cars that are built for the track, have no rebuild cycles, and offer a full roll cage and safety system. The more time you spent on the track, more fiascoes you’re going to see and the more you’re gonna want to be wrapped in a full cage down through your feet
Thanks @UCFJWH The per hour cost increase from having 100-hour service interval is a great way to think about it. Your direct experience is super helpful and has the exact information I was hoping to get from experts here.
Realistically, I probably expect to get around 2 hours per event (keeping it a mellow demand on the driver). Sounds like other than relatively high cost, pretty intense natural pace, and low supply, a GT4 RS Clubsport can be prepared for a solo operation during an event with ~2 hours of driving time total (basic tire maintenance and mechanical know-how).
I bought a new 718 CS Trackday spec a year ago. Same objectives as you. I have had lots of race cars over the years and wanted a team free simple car that felt fun. The CS has proven to be everything I hoped it would be and more. I had car set up by Pfaff Racing specifically for my home track. Right out of the box I was super happy.
I have the car serviced by the local Porsche dealer. No issues at all. I got the air jacks working and it is dead easy to change tires. I torque the lugs before every session myself. Car burns minimal oil which I top up in small increments.
I run Pirelli which have exceeded my expectations. I used to race Formula Renault so heating slicks and brakes on the outlap is second nature to me. So far I find the Pirellis quite amazing as I have used worn tires during events like Porsche track days and taking out friends where I did not want to sacrifice the glory laps of a new set of slicks doing 80% laps. I was expecting a lot tougher time than the tires gave me. The tires wear evenly and I am fine with loss of ultimate lap time but not fine with tires that scare me. I would not take them down to canvas no matter what but I did use tires with 15 heat cycles.
I have Race Logic V-Box HD2 which I much enjoy, I am very familiar with data from my racing days and always look forward to seeing what I did in reality compared with what I thought I did. Front and rear facing cameras help a lot in putting context on data traces. I also use the Garmin occasionally for fun. the coaching tips crack me up sometimes.
I am really impressed with the 718 platform so I ordered a GT4RS. For sure will be faster than the Clubsport on the straights. I will not do a full blown track set up on the RS to keep it relatively enjoyable on the roads. The Cup2R’s will be interesting and I have low expectations for them as they wear. I am not impressed with the Cup 2’s on my GT500 CFTP and Mach 1 HP. I can easily imagine keeping my CS after I get the RS. I am thinking the CS might be a long term keeper.
The new CS is not for me. If I was going to face a lot of the aggravation of maintaining a Cup car I would rather get a Cup car. I think the CS that I have is the sweet spot of a safe low maintenance track car.
Negatives - you can watch flowers grow as you are going down the straight. That is GT4. Personally I am ok with that. As I get older I need more time to plan my next lap. The road car key setup is stupid in a race car and you will want to keep a paper clip handy for freeing it if there is an electrical glitch. I did not drain the fuel tank as recommended for 5 months of winter storage.
One unexpected positive is that I keep the car at my summer home. First race car I have ever had that does not live with a team. Something nice about seeing it every day.
One unexpected positive is that I keep the car at my summer home. First race car I have ever had that does not live with a team. Something nice about seeing it every day.
02-24-2022, 08:59 PM
