Will The Chinese Buy Porsche??
09-22-2015, 11:31 AM
#1
Drifting
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Will The Chinese Buy Porsche??
I'm wondering what happens to Porsche if VW goes down over this emissions scandal? Porsche tried to buy VW and in the end it was VW that bought Porsche. If VW is bankrupted by this scandal, what will become of Porsche? I assume it would be sold to pay off the VW bankruptcy debts. Does that mean Porsche is going to Chinese ownership like Volvo and others?
09-22-2015, 11:33 AM
#2
Banned
With that stock price plummet, it is ripe for a buy out.
09-24-2015, 05:49 PM
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Relax, guys. Every manufacturer cheats, every one has recalls all the time for cutting corners everywhere possible. I understand that the bureaucrats at EPA and its European equivalents are taking this personally, but nobody's going to wage a war against the auto industry.
The last thing Merkel will allow is another carmaker to go under. All because some pencil pushers want their 15 minutes of fame? Not gonna happen.
It's not VW's fault that diesels are dirty. VW only tried to sing to the tune of the regulators. That's what the EPA wants - by 2025 we're supposed to have cars doing something close to 50mpg. What??? This is a competitive industry that has spent the better part of the last 100 years trying to improve fuel economy, and we're realistically around 20-25 mpg on most cars. And that's with turbos, thin motor oils, engine overheat, fuel additives and mechanical sacrifices inside the engine. How do the clueless bureaucrats expect the engineers to suddenly double that in a decade? It is clear to everyone that the only way those numbers will be reached is by thorough and consistent manipulation. The only guys who haven't realized yet are the bureaucrats at the EPA.
The only circumstance under which VW will take a heavy hit is if Google gets fined by the EU. I can see US taking revenge. But other than that, don't expect this to hurt VW in the long run.
The last thing Merkel will allow is another carmaker to go under. All because some pencil pushers want their 15 minutes of fame? Not gonna happen.
It's not VW's fault that diesels are dirty. VW only tried to sing to the tune of the regulators. That's what the EPA wants - by 2025 we're supposed to have cars doing something close to 50mpg. What??? This is a competitive industry that has spent the better part of the last 100 years trying to improve fuel economy, and we're realistically around 20-25 mpg on most cars. And that's with turbos, thin motor oils, engine overheat, fuel additives and mechanical sacrifices inside the engine. How do the clueless bureaucrats expect the engineers to suddenly double that in a decade? It is clear to everyone that the only way those numbers will be reached is by thorough and consistent manipulation. The only guys who haven't realized yet are the bureaucrats at the EPA.
The only circumstance under which VW will take a heavy hit is if Google gets fined by the EU. I can see US taking revenge. But other than that, don't expect this to hurt VW in the long run.
09-24-2015, 10:13 PM
#4
Relax, guys. Every manufacturer cheats, every one has recalls all the time for cutting corners everywhere possible. I understand that the bureaucrats at EPA and its European equivalents are taking this personally, but nobody's going to wage a war against the auto industry.
The last thing Merkel will allow is another carmaker to go under. All because some pencil pushers want their 15 minutes of fame? Not gonna happen.
It's not VW's fault that diesels are dirty. VW only tried to sing to the tune of the regulators. That's what the EPA wants - by 2025 we're supposed to have cars doing something close to 50mpg. What??? This is a competitive industry that has spent the better part of the last 100 years trying to improve fuel economy, and we're realistically around 20-25 mpg on most cars. And that's with turbos, thin motor oils, engine overheat, fuel additives and mechanical sacrifices inside the engine. How do the clueless bureaucrats expect the engineers to suddenly double that in a decade? It is clear to everyone that the only way those numbers will be reached is by thorough and consistent manipulation. The only guys who haven't realized yet are the bureaucrats at the EPA.
The only circumstance under which VW will take a heavy hit is if Google gets fined by the EU. I can see US taking revenge. But other than that, don't expect this to hurt VW in the long run.
The last thing Merkel will allow is another carmaker to go under. All because some pencil pushers want their 15 minutes of fame? Not gonna happen.
It's not VW's fault that diesels are dirty. VW only tried to sing to the tune of the regulators. That's what the EPA wants - by 2025 we're supposed to have cars doing something close to 50mpg. What??? This is a competitive industry that has spent the better part of the last 100 years trying to improve fuel economy, and we're realistically around 20-25 mpg on most cars. And that's with turbos, thin motor oils, engine overheat, fuel additives and mechanical sacrifices inside the engine. How do the clueless bureaucrats expect the engineers to suddenly double that in a decade? It is clear to everyone that the only way those numbers will be reached is by thorough and consistent manipulation. The only guys who haven't realized yet are the bureaucrats at the EPA.
The only circumstance under which VW will take a heavy hit is if Google gets fined by the EU. I can see US taking revenge. But other than that, don't expect this to hurt VW in the long run.
Now I love me some gas guzzler N/A engine, but honestly fossil fuel engines are a very ancient technology that has been overdue since at least 1970 and innovation has been artificially blocked by both the oil industry, lobbyist and the car manufacturers. These folks have kept us in stone age and exposed to volatility of oil.
Now they should pay the price, like Nokia did for intentionally stagnating the market until Apple made it go bankrupt. We need electric cars. 50 MPG piece of cake. Just imagine what the manufacturers would still sell today if there were not for the aggressive regulatory targets! 6-liter air polluting V12s with ridiculous mileage, performance and zero innovation.
China has not been enforcing their standards and what they have is Beijing -- a city where kids have to stay indoors 250 days of the year because the air is toxic.
Last edited by kinimod; 09-24-2015 at 10:29 PM.
09-24-2015, 10:33 PM
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Relax, guys. Every manufacturer cheats, every one has recalls all the time for cutting corners everywhere possible. I understand that the bureaucrats at EPA and its European equivalents are taking this personally, but nobody's going to wage a war against the auto industry.
The last thing Merkel will allow is another carmaker to go under. All because some pencil pushers want their 15 minutes of fame? Not gonna happen.
It's not VW's fault that diesels are dirty. VW only tried to sing to the tune of the regulators. That's what the EPA wants - by 2025 we're supposed to have cars doing something close to 50mpg. What??? This is a competitive industry that has spent the better part of the last 100 years trying to improve fuel economy, and we're realistically around 20-25 mpg on most cars. And that's with turbos, thin motor oils, engine overheat, fuel additives and mechanical sacrifices inside the engine. How do the clueless bureaucrats expect the engineers to suddenly double that in a decade? It is clear to everyone that the only way those numbers will be reached is by thorough and consistent manipulation. The only guys who haven't realized yet are the bureaucrats at the EPA.
The only circumstance under which VW will take a heavy hit is if Google gets fined by the EU. I can see US taking revenge. But other than that, don't expect this to hurt VW in the long run.
The last thing Merkel will allow is another carmaker to go under. All because some pencil pushers want their 15 minutes of fame? Not gonna happen.
It's not VW's fault that diesels are dirty. VW only tried to sing to the tune of the regulators. That's what the EPA wants - by 2025 we're supposed to have cars doing something close to 50mpg. What??? This is a competitive industry that has spent the better part of the last 100 years trying to improve fuel economy, and we're realistically around 20-25 mpg on most cars. And that's with turbos, thin motor oils, engine overheat, fuel additives and mechanical sacrifices inside the engine. How do the clueless bureaucrats expect the engineers to suddenly double that in a decade? It is clear to everyone that the only way those numbers will be reached is by thorough and consistent manipulation. The only guys who haven't realized yet are the bureaucrats at the EPA.
The only circumstance under which VW will take a heavy hit is if Google gets fined by the EU. I can see US taking revenge. But other than that, don't expect this to hurt VW in the long run.
09-25-2015, 01:34 AM
#6
Racer
Relax, guys. Every manufacturer cheats, every one has recalls all the time for cutting corners everywhere possible. I understand that the bureaucrats at EPA and its European equivalents are taking this personally, but nobody's going to wage a war against the auto industry.
The last thing Merkel will allow is another carmaker to go under. All because some pencil pushers want their 15 minutes of fame? Not gonna happen.
It's not VW's fault that diesels are dirty. VW only tried to sing to the tune of the regulators. That's what the EPA wants - by 2025 we're supposed to have cars doing something close to 50mpg. What??? This is a competitive industry that has spent the better part of the last 100 years trying to improve fuel economy, and we're realistically around 20-25 mpg on most cars. And that's with turbos, thin motor oils, engine overheat, fuel additives and mechanical sacrifices inside the engine. How do the clueless bureaucrats expect the engineers to suddenly double that in a decade? It is clear to everyone that the only way those numbers will be reached is by thorough and consistent manipulation. The only guys who haven't realized yet are the bureaucrats at the EPA.
The only circumstance under which VW will take a heavy hit is if Google gets fined by the EU. I can see US taking revenge. But other than that, don't expect this to hurt VW in the long run.
The last thing Merkel will allow is another carmaker to go under. All because some pencil pushers want their 15 minutes of fame? Not gonna happen.
It's not VW's fault that diesels are dirty. VW only tried to sing to the tune of the regulators. That's what the EPA wants - by 2025 we're supposed to have cars doing something close to 50mpg. What??? This is a competitive industry that has spent the better part of the last 100 years trying to improve fuel economy, and we're realistically around 20-25 mpg on most cars. And that's with turbos, thin motor oils, engine overheat, fuel additives and mechanical sacrifices inside the engine. How do the clueless bureaucrats expect the engineers to suddenly double that in a decade? It is clear to everyone that the only way those numbers will be reached is by thorough and consistent manipulation. The only guys who haven't realized yet are the bureaucrats at the EPA.
The only circumstance under which VW will take a heavy hit is if Google gets fined by the EU. I can see US taking revenge. But other than that, don't expect this to hurt VW in the long run.
agree... these are tough times with high unemployment and a very precarious recovery... last thing politicians need is more people on the street... and for what? some theoretical spec that some pencil pusher came up with? don't see it happening either ...
09-25-2015, 02:49 AM
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Speef gets the point, Massimo doesn't but that's ok. If I worked for VAG, I would apologize and resign 
Kinimod: agreed that rechargeable makes the gas engine look obsolete. But not so fast. Formula 1 and NASCAR still drive on gas. And it's not like they brought less innovation than Elon Musk did. The new Alfa Romeo 4C is an accessible beast at something like $40'000, but its carbon body technology comes directly from the latest F1. To say that the auto industry is not innovative is IMHO a misunderstanding; to believe that regulators encourage innovation is unfortunate. There was a time when the government was not yet skilled at stealth taxes and budget maximizing - and not everyone drove a V12.
Oil dependency works both ways - right now it's on a downswing. Our 'friends' Russia, Saudi, let alone Venezuela are running massive deficits, begging us and Europe to stop drilling shale. They're funding our environmentalists. Makes me wonder how much more secure we're going to be when we all depend on that one plant in Japan that shut down after Fukushima. Remember? Toyota stopped production for weeks because 90% of all auto battery cells in the world were made by one company. Second hand Priuses in San Francisco were selling above their MSRP. I don't remember that happening during any of the oil shocks.
i agree with you in a deeper sense - that some form of regulation improves some aspects. China is a tragedy while Vietnam is not, because Vietnam bans motorcycles older than 5 years or so. (it's not the Bentleys that are causing the pollution). Great for manufacturers and one can always ride a bicycle as well as a V12. But our EPA, instead of tacitly supporting the auto industry by cutting away the old fashioned cars you are criticizing, has overgrown into a self justifying governmental overreach that coerces engineers into bogus software instead of fuel efficiency.
Kinimod: agreed that rechargeable makes the gas engine look obsolete. But not so fast. Formula 1 and NASCAR still drive on gas. And it's not like they brought less innovation than Elon Musk did. The new Alfa Romeo 4C is an accessible beast at something like $40'000, but its carbon body technology comes directly from the latest F1. To say that the auto industry is not innovative is IMHO a misunderstanding; to believe that regulators encourage innovation is unfortunate. There was a time when the government was not yet skilled at stealth taxes and budget maximizing - and not everyone drove a V12.
Oil dependency works both ways - right now it's on a downswing. Our 'friends' Russia, Saudi, let alone Venezuela are running massive deficits, begging us and Europe to stop drilling shale. They're funding our environmentalists. Makes me wonder how much more secure we're going to be when we all depend on that one plant in Japan that shut down after Fukushima. Remember? Toyota stopped production for weeks because 90% of all auto battery cells in the world were made by one company. Second hand Priuses in San Francisco were selling above their MSRP. I don't remember that happening during any of the oil shocks.
i agree with you in a deeper sense - that some form of regulation improves some aspects. China is a tragedy while Vietnam is not, because Vietnam bans motorcycles older than 5 years or so. (it's not the Bentleys that are causing the pollution). Great for manufacturers and one can always ride a bicycle as well as a V12. But our EPA, instead of tacitly supporting the auto industry by cutting away the old fashioned cars you are criticizing, has overgrown into a self justifying governmental overreach that coerces engineers into bogus software instead of fuel efficiency.
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09-25-2015, 09:39 AM
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Relax, guys. Every manufacturer cheats, every one has recalls all the time for cutting corners everywhere possible. I understand that the bureaucrats at EPA and its European equivalents are taking this personally, but nobody's going to wage a war against the auto industry.
The last thing Merkel will allow is another carmaker to go under. All because some pencil pushers want their 15 minutes of fame? Not gonna happen.
It's not VW's fault that diesels are dirty. VW only tried to sing to the tune of the regulators. That's what the EPA wants - by 2025 we're supposed to have cars doing something close to 50mpg. What??? This is a competitive industry that has spent the better part of the last 100 years trying to improve fuel economy, and we're realistically around 20-25 mpg on most cars. And that's with turbos, thin motor oils, engine overheat, fuel additives and mechanical sacrifices inside the engine. How do the clueless bureaucrats expect the engineers to suddenly double that in a decade? It is clear to everyone that the only way those numbers will be reached is by thorough and consistent manipulation. The only guys who haven't realized yet are the bureaucrats at the EPA.
The only circumstance under which VW will take a heavy hit is if Google gets fined by the EU. I can see US taking revenge. But other than that, don't expect this to hurt VW in the long run.
The last thing Merkel will allow is another carmaker to go under. All because some pencil pushers want their 15 minutes of fame? Not gonna happen.
It's not VW's fault that diesels are dirty. VW only tried to sing to the tune of the regulators. That's what the EPA wants - by 2025 we're supposed to have cars doing something close to 50mpg. What??? This is a competitive industry that has spent the better part of the last 100 years trying to improve fuel economy, and we're realistically around 20-25 mpg on most cars. And that's with turbos, thin motor oils, engine overheat, fuel additives and mechanical sacrifices inside the engine. How do the clueless bureaucrats expect the engineers to suddenly double that in a decade? It is clear to everyone that the only way those numbers will be reached is by thorough and consistent manipulation. The only guys who haven't realized yet are the bureaucrats at the EPA.
The only circumstance under which VW will take a heavy hit is if Google gets fined by the EU. I can see US taking revenge. But other than that, don't expect this to hurt VW in the long run.
Last edited by Kulak; 09-26-2015 at 02:03 AM.
09-25-2015, 08:09 PM
#9
Relax, guys. Every manufacturer cheats, every one has recalls all the time for cutting corners everywhere possible. I understand that the bureaucrats at EPA and its European equivalents are taking this personally, but nobody's going to wage a war against the auto industry.
The last thing Merkel will allow is another carmaker to go under. All because some pencil pushers want their 15 minutes of fame? Not gonna happen.
It's not VW's fault that diesels are dirty. VW only tried to sing to the tune of the regulators. That's what the EPA wants - by 2025 we're supposed to have cars doing something close to 50mpg. What??? This is a competitive industry that has spent the better part of the last 100 years trying to improve fuel economy, and we're realistically around 20-25 mpg on most cars. And that's with turbos, thin motor oils, engine overheat, fuel additives and mechanical sacrifices inside the engine. How do the clueless bureaucrats expect the engineers to suddenly double that in a decade? It is clear to everyone that the only way those numbers will be reached is by thorough and consistent manipulation. The only guys who haven't realized yet are the bureaucrats at the EPA.
The only circumstance under which VW will take a heavy hit is if Google gets fined by the EU. I can see US taking revenge. But other than that, don't expect this to hurt VW in the long run.
The last thing Merkel will allow is another carmaker to go under. All because some pencil pushers want their 15 minutes of fame? Not gonna happen.
It's not VW's fault that diesels are dirty. VW only tried to sing to the tune of the regulators. That's what the EPA wants - by 2025 we're supposed to have cars doing something close to 50mpg. What??? This is a competitive industry that has spent the better part of the last 100 years trying to improve fuel economy, and we're realistically around 20-25 mpg on most cars. And that's with turbos, thin motor oils, engine overheat, fuel additives and mechanical sacrifices inside the engine. How do the clueless bureaucrats expect the engineers to suddenly double that in a decade? It is clear to everyone that the only way those numbers will be reached is by thorough and consistent manipulation. The only guys who haven't realized yet are the bureaucrats at the EPA.
The only circumstance under which VW will take a heavy hit is if Google gets fined by the EU. I can see US taking revenge. But other than that, don't expect this to hurt VW in the long run.
Speef gets the point, Massimo doesn't but that's ok. If I worked for VAG, I would apologize and resign
Kinimod: agreed that rechargeable makes the gas engine look obsolete. But not so fast. Formula 1 and NASCAR still drive on gas. And it's not like they brought less innovation than Elon Musk did. The new Alfa Romeo 4C is an accessible beast at something like $40'000, but its carbon body technology comes directly from the latest F1. To say that the auto industry is not innovative is IMHO a misunderstanding; to believe that regulators encourage innovation is unfortunate. There was a time when the government was not yet skilled at stealth taxes and budget maximizing - and not everyone drove a V12.
Oil dependency works both ways - right now it's on a downswing. Our 'friends' Russia, Saudi, let alone Venezuela are running massive deficits, begging us and Europe to stop drilling shale. They're funding our environmentalists. Makes me wonder how much more secure we're going to be when we all depend on that one plant in Japan that shut down after Fukushima. Remember? Toyota stopped production for weeks because 90% of all auto battery cells in the world were made by one company. Second hand Priuses in San Francisco were selling above their MSRP. I don't remember that happening during any of the oil shocks.
i agree with you in a deeper sense - that some form of regulation improves some aspects. China is a tragedy while Vietnam is not, because Vietnam bans motorcycles older than 5 years or so. (it's not the Bentleys that are causing the pollution). Great for manufacturers and one can always ride a bicycle as well as a V12. But our EPA, instead of tacitly supporting the auto industry by cutting away the old fashioned cars you are criticizing, has overgrown into a self justifying governmental overreach that coerces engineers into bogus software instead of fuel efficiency.
Kinimod: agreed that rechargeable makes the gas engine look obsolete. But not so fast. Formula 1 and NASCAR still drive on gas. And it's not like they brought less innovation than Elon Musk did. The new Alfa Romeo 4C is an accessible beast at something like $40'000, but its carbon body technology comes directly from the latest F1. To say that the auto industry is not innovative is IMHO a misunderstanding; to believe that regulators encourage innovation is unfortunate. There was a time when the government was not yet skilled at stealth taxes and budget maximizing - and not everyone drove a V12.
Oil dependency works both ways - right now it's on a downswing. Our 'friends' Russia, Saudi, let alone Venezuela are running massive deficits, begging us and Europe to stop drilling shale. They're funding our environmentalists. Makes me wonder how much more secure we're going to be when we all depend on that one plant in Japan that shut down after Fukushima. Remember? Toyota stopped production for weeks because 90% of all auto battery cells in the world were made by one company. Second hand Priuses in San Francisco were selling above their MSRP. I don't remember that happening during any of the oil shocks.
i agree with you in a deeper sense - that some form of regulation improves some aspects. China is a tragedy while Vietnam is not, because Vietnam bans motorcycles older than 5 years or so. (it's not the Bentleys that are causing the pollution). Great for manufacturers and one can always ride a bicycle as well as a V12. But our EPA, instead of tacitly supporting the auto industry by cutting away the old fashioned cars you are criticizing, has overgrown into a self justifying governmental overreach that coerces engineers into bogus software instead of fuel efficiency.
Like I said, I love a big "ancient" smelly engine also. It sure is fun.
But I think I love clean air more. And I'd also prefer New York City and hundreds of coastal cities and villages to stay above sea level in the next 50 years.
I've been to some cities that struggle with pollution. Developing ones with lots of motorcycles especially, as you mentioned. It is quite terrible there. But even just walking the streets of Berlin (which is far from the worst) can be an "intoxicating" experience. The air can be horribly unbreathable. Makes one appreciate the clean air of San Francisco and alike, where wind blows everything away.
However this unfolds, it's likely that VW will survive this easily as you mentioned, but I do hope this event will accelerate even more serious engine innovations.
09-26-2015, 09:13 PM
#11
Relax, guys. Every manufacturer cheats, every one has recalls all the time for cutting corners everywhere possible. I understand that the bureaucrats at EPA and its European equivalents are taking this personally, but nobody's going to wage a war against the auto industry.
Good points, but I would argue about the targets. Electric cars have been known for 100 years also, and no manufacturer has been very interested in building them and figuring out the range issue. "Why bother innovating if we can just sell what we have for another 5 decades?"
Now I love me some gas guzzler N/A engine, but honestly fossil fuel engines are a very ancient technology that has been overdue since at least 1970 and innovation has been artificially blocked by both the oil industry, lobbyist and the car manufacturers. These folks have kept us in stone age and exposed to volatility of oil.
Now I love me some gas guzzler N/A engine, but honestly fossil fuel engines are a very ancient technology that has been overdue since at least 1970 and innovation has been artificially blocked by both the oil industry, lobbyist and the car manufacturers. These folks have kept us in stone age and exposed to volatility of oil.
09-27-2015, 01:40 AM
#12
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More to the point, the EPA needed some environmental news to drive out the news of their own malfeasance with the Colorado mine water spill. The EPA did more damage to the environment with that spill than VW has done all decade. What a load of garbage. The oil industry and car manufacturers have hardly kept us in the Stone Age and most of what they've blocked have been stupid ideas. No manufacturer has been interested because the range issue is and has been a very real engineering and logistical problem. If Rockefeller and Ford had teamed up to do what Tesla is being given government tax credits to do, they would have been prosecuted and subject to trust-busting. Fossil fuel engines remain popular because of the energy density of liquid fuels. I don't want to have to pull over for 40-60 minutes every 200 miles (and that's assuming I could find a place to recharge at those intervals). I drove 1600 miles a couple weekends ago -- even Tesla's fast recharge stations would have added too much time to do that roadtrip in a weekend.