sharkmeister85

I guess what's done is done. Seems like a real shame and unnecessarily at that. However, I am left wondering about this whole insurance issue. Adrian, you explained .."that they claim they cannot secure liability insurance for the PCA in Germany. What this means they cannot insure against US citizens suing the PCA (as was explained to me) if something happens to them whilst in Germany at a PCA-GR event. The letter says that they cannot get insurance for US citizens but what this really means they cannot get insurance protection against liability from US citizens." Why is this? Is it because of German insurance or liability laws? Or does it reflect that local (German) insurers are unwilling to insure overly litigious U.S. citizens? Otherwise,the situation would seem analogous to Canadian regions that have U.S citizens attending our events. Or even any U.S. citizen attending a U.S. located event. Any additional clarification would be appreciated.
Glenn Benson
v-p, Canada West Region
PCA

BBAYOU

"That would be Jack Blair. I don't think he fits into anything. He is an employee of Porsche Cars North America and not Porsche AG. He has nothing to do with Germany. If anything the Club liaison from Porsche AG would be the one to deal with the Germany Region...."

Actually that would be incorrect also.....PCA is an independent organization that does as they see fit and has no "direct connection" to PCNA or Porsche AG. What PCA does with or to any of their Regions is their independent decision, they answer to no one else. Germany Region was a region of PCA just like any other Region, their geographic location does not make them a special ward of Porsche AG. The earler comment that that inferred that since employees of PAG were in the club that PAG was "responsible", would be like saying IBM is responsible for PCA because the current President used to be an IBM employee.....there is no connection.
As I understand it, "Germany Region" was actually the default region for any PCA member that lived in Europe, not just Germany....I concur that it is a very sad day indeed when a Region that has supported both the Porsche Brand and Porsche Club of America of over 40 years is disolved by decree... no matter what the reason. They will be missed, and hopefully not all will be alienated from the real reason for the club in the first place, the love of the Porsche marque...because "it's not just the cars...it's the people"

Adrian

Dear Glenn,
I cannot answer your question because I was not involved with the insurance issue. I was advised that the concern was that a US citizen would return to the US injured and a lawyer there may advise litigation agains the PCA.
The letter we received did state that all PCA involvement in Germany such as the Factory Tours are also cancelled.
Who really knows but as I said I feel this might just be the beginning and the fall out is going to spread because the PCA HQ cannot apply one set of rules to one region outside of the USA and apply different rules to another. My insurance man told me that anything was possible in the insurance business but you might have to pay a little more. I submit that in the end that this had more to do with cost of the insurance rather than not being able to find suitable insurance.
However I doubt if we will ever truly find out.
Ciao,
Adrian
964C4

Jim Sorensen

"Cannot secure insurance" is ridiculous. What did they do for the first 30+ years of existence. Indeed, some kinds of insurance is more expensive in Germany but some is less.

RJT

BBAYOU,

That is what I thought I said.....
"I don't think he fits into ANYTHING" and "IF ANYTHING yada yada yada Porsche AG".........
I did not come straight out and say that Jack is a hard working employee of PCNA that has no connection to PCA other than to show up at various meetings and region functions. Plus he works with all the other various Porsche Clubs (i.e. 356 registry) in the US. He is the person we contact when we we ask to use the Porsche Crest or any other Porsche Trademarks. He is the person we invite to functions etc. I know that they (PCNA and PAG) do not have anything to do with what PCA decides to do or not to do. Hence the "IF ANYTHING" in my previous post.

Please forgive me and my roundabout way of explaining things. I am sorry that I did not make it clear the first time.

JoAnne

User 41221

It strikes me that what made your organization special was not the affiliation with PCA, but rather, it was the individuals that comprised your organization. So what if PCA doesn't want you? Why should that stop you? We have had very good luck in Kansas City starting our own enthusiast group, with the support of Rennlist. The local PCA club wasn't addressing our needs, so we did our own thing. Its obvious you guys are passionate about your group. It shouldn't be hard for you to keep it going.

Regards,

Adrian

Dear Scott,
Jein (yes and no). The PCA-GR was special and provided a core organisation which brought people together from all over Europe. The umbrella organisation is very important.
PCA is also "Porsche approved" and there is a worldwide PAG approved club co-ordinator. PCA is required to follow some rules laid down in Zuffenhausen.
Here in Europe PAG have been very active in shutting down the unapproved clubs. In fact here in Switzerland all the Porsche clubs were forced to amalgamate into one big club if they wished to keep the factory support. There in lies the problem. I cannot join the approved Porsche German club I would be referred to the Swiss version.
PCA-GR provided an escape for that plus it allowed an interaction between ex-pats and German speakers.
The PCA-GR was unique and cannot be replaced easily.
Ciao,
Adrian
964C4

PS: I am also a member of a British based non approved Porsche club and you do not want to know the treatment this group has received in the past.

Irishdriver

Hi All,

I'm posting this mail in the hope of everyone having a clear understanding of the issues.

The situation with PCA Germany region is very simple. We are part of an American club operating outside of the US. We have a problem with insurance cover. This is not a problem for Porsche AG - it is not a problem for Porsche Cars North America - it is a PCA problem.

Insurance in Germany is not a problem and Mr. Bobbits letter to the club members implying US Citizens would not be insured at our events is simply not true. All participants in events would be insured regardless of nationality under a German policy.

The real issue is the American Legal system and the possibility of legal action in the US over something that happens in Germany.

The Insurance experts here in Germany have identified that German Based Insurance:
1) cannot name an additional insured being a resident from abroad
(Hence PCA HQ Management in the US cannot be named)
2) does not cover activities in the US / CAN (not necessary)
3) does not cover legal disputes in US / CAN
(Hence no cover if sued in the US over an event in Germany)

In addition PCA HQ has told us that their US based insurance is not prepared to cover PCA for any action or liability arising out of an event outside of of the US/CAN.

This means there is a big gap in the insurance coverage. What to do if sued in the US over an event in Germany? PCA HQ have told us that they have had insurance evaluators and legal guys examine this and they have determined that the risk is too great for PCA to take themselves. Germany Region never even had an insurance claim in our 40+ years - but I'm not an insurance loss adjuster so I have to accept their decision. Their decision is based on the risk to the assets of the other 139 regions.

The process of having a right to reply is a bit pointless unless we can find a source of suitable insurance. We will make a submnission to the July Executive meeting but we are limited in what we can suggest. This situation is sad as Germany Region was 40 years old last year - that is a lot of tradition to lose.

It is also a bad reflection of the current US legal approach where people refuse to take responsibility for themselves and their own actions and try to involve anyone with the means to pay compensation. Also the concept of "Punative damages" does not exist in Germany.

The agressive tone and bad feelings shown in the correspondance so far are a direct consequence of too little information being shared with the region. If we had been kept up to date on the situation a lot of that could have been avoided. Mr. Bobbit - please be more open when other regions have difficulties !! Good communication can avoid many problems. We're not happy about the situation but we could have understood the difficulties if you had given us access to the full information.

Going forward, members in Germany Region are being offered transfers to other regions and many will take this up. Some because they want the Panorama and some because they plan to move to the US sometime. A significant number will decide to quit the PCA as they feel let down by all of this.

Those staying in Germany can join Porsche Club Deutschland and do events with them. Some are thinking of forming their own club. I have no doubt that the friendships that have been formed in the region will continue.

I thank the members of the PCA executive who have worked hard to try and find a solution and maintain communication. However, as the PCA president questioned the purpose and viability of Germany region last November, I must say that I'm not totally surprised by the outcome.

David Kennedy
Vice President (probably the last), Germany Region
(acting President)

Adrian

Dear Irishdriver,

You said "However, as the PCA president questioned the purpose and viability of Germany region last November, I must say that I'm not totally surprised by the outcome".

That is why I felt the statement in the letter by Mr. Bobbit that he had a heavy heart because of having to shut us down was not very convincing. It was very clear back in November when I was told about his statements about PCA-GR that his mind was already made up. It was just a matter of time after that. Only he knows what his real motivations were. The rest of us can only speculate.
Ciao,
Adrian
964C4

Jim Sorensen

To Irishdriver et al: What did the Region do for the first 40 years about insurance? Did something change overnight? We we do a DE here in the States, and usually the track has you sign your life away and indicate they are not responsible for ANYthing etc. When buying a house, you should see the contract clauses indicating who is or is not responsible. In order to continue the GR wouldn't it be possible for all old and new members sign a "contract" that limits liabilities for PCA? I am only hearing what is going on from Rennlist so am not close to the situation or perhaps all of the facts. But what I glean is that PCA (especially Bobitt) is telling you what CAN'T be done instead of what CAN be done.
All the best to GR folks!

Adrian

Dear Jim,
You got it in one. Last year it was plain to me that Bobbit wanted us gone. The insurance is just an excuse. Somebody would have to ask Bobbit why he wanted us gone. His communications last year clearly showed a dislike for foreigners and the concept of an external region of only 241 members. Politics maybe, who really knows. He wrote a letter to PAG and PCNA asking them not to angry with him if he cancelled PCA-GR long before the official decision was made.
Ciao,
Adrian
964C4

Irishdriver

Hi Jim,

Yes, there is one big difference in Germany region circumstances -

When the region started, and for many years, all events were run on US military airbases. These were considered as part of the US for insurance reasons and therefore PCA cover was extended.

In the last few years, for security reasons, access to the airbases has not been possible. Events have been held on Local - German - airbases. It appears we operated for a number of years like this without our insurers, PCA or ourselves realising there could be any problem with the cover.

PCA renegotiated the insurance cover at the start of last year and discovered this problem. No solution has yet been found.

I'm not sure even if we manage to get back onto military property that the situation will be resolved - as the fear and cost of fighting spurious litigation seems to dominate the decision process.

We will try once again to get access to military property to see if we can create a workable solution.

DrJupeman

Fwiw, at NNJR's Board of Governor's meeting last night there was dialog on this subject (brought up by our president since he needs to vote on this). The general mood was that this was a very sad occurrence and no one was inclined to want to kick Germany region out yet. I'm not sure how the vote will come down, but it would just seem that there has to be an answer. We'd all like more details on what was investigated, what was the cost that drives us to this answer, etc. Whatever happens, this is a sad event for PCA and Germany region will be missed if in fact they are disenfranchised.

wch

"His communications last year clearly showed a dislike for foreigners and the concept of an external region of only 241 members."

That's so ridiculous, Adrian, it's hard to believe, I'm truly sorry to hear that. A dislike for German members of a Club dedicated to celebrating a German marque? Does PCA have top flight legal and insurance advisors? Does PCA have a public response to the Germany Region's concerns? I'm a PCA member, and I'd like to understand what's going on.

Les.cook

Fellow Porsche Enthusiasts of the PCA – Germany Region,

Well, by now you all should have received your letters. If you haven’t; Tom Bobbitt notified all members of Germany Region that they revoked our privileges to operate as a region, effective immediately (May 20, 2004). Additionally, in accordance with their by-laws, they are brining this issue before the Board of Directors for a final decision on July 6, 2004.

I have spoken with legal experts and many members about this and here is my take. Tom Bobbitt and his lawyers did a very good job of covering all their bases, legally. Therefore, we would not be wise to initiate legal action at this time, under these circumstances. It would only serve to drain our bank account with little hope of gaining anything. He has claimed the inability to get insurance coverage as the reason and he has offered to refund our money for dues.

Here is what I think is the real deal. Tom (and his people) made a half hearted effort to research insurance coverage, but made the requirements so extensive that coverage was either not possible or not cost effective.

I have heard from many PCA members from other regions that are dismayed that this is taking place at all. They don’t get it any more than we do. All of us are unclear about what specific facts surround the insurance issue. What was required? How much would it cost? What alternatives were sought? What alternative solutions were explored? What is the actual liability exposure? No one has heard the answers to these questions. That is why so many non-Germany Region members are confused. I don’t have answers for them, but they may be the key to our survival.

Now is the time for one last desperate act of a desperate region! In order for our Regional Charter to be revoked permanently, it must be approved by two-thirds of the Board. Any of you with friends in other regions, please contact them and tell them what is going on. All Regional Presidents have a vote in the Board of Directors. Ask your friends and acquaintances to contact their region President and have them vote against the revocation of our charter. If you don’t have friends in other regions, contact other Region Presidents or Zone Representatives yourself. Impress upon them that if they can so easily let go of a Region that is 40 years old, who is next? We are a valuable asset to the PCA as a whole. Giving up is not the answer. We (PCA) can work harder to find a solution.

I haven’t heard from David Kennedy about if he plans to attend the 6 July meeting, or who he would be sending in his place. I expect he will let us know about that shortly. I have heard a little bit about some efforts by Larry Miller to work on some alternative proposals that can be made to the PCA. Good luck, Larry!

So, with that, I leave it to you. If you wish to see our club continue, please act with enthusiasm and lobby for your interests! Good luck to all of us!

Les Cook
PCA – GR Member
Meistershaft – Class A Slalom