Hi

I have done the occasional DE day over the past 9 years; liked it but hard to find the time. Traded in my 991.1 GTS for a 991.2 GT3 and want to spend a lot more time at the track. Was thinking of picking up a data acquisition system (with camera) so I could watch my laps and improve my driving. I read the reviews of the Catalyst and it seems like the right way to go for me... but if I’m going to spend $1000 on it... I have to wonder what I could get for a little more (ok, maybe a lot more) and if it’s worth it at this point for me. Should I be considering an AIM or an Apex product or a Racekeeper ? It’s a slippery slope, but I guess that’s how I ended up with a GT3 in the first place ;-)


Any advice will be helpful; thanks !

Brad

 

Hahaha! Know about that slippery slope.

What do you want to get out of the system you buy? Vehicle health? Driver improvement?

How much time do to want to spend on navigating the technology to harvest information for improvement?

I sell and support three very popular options for your car.

The Catalyst, least expensive, simplest to use and get benefit from, actionable information and real time feedback no other system provides. No laptop required. Have sold a hundred and fifty in in eleven weeks.

The AiM Solo 2 DL/SmartyCam HD combination. Lots of users, useful video with car metrics on it, time consuming analysis and steep software learning curve for any more than simple review. Windows only. Have sold more than seven hundred of these over the last eight years.

VBOX Video HD2, significant investment in terms of initial cost, easy to use software, multiple cameras, good car info and very well built. Windows and native Mac OS software. My most popular option for those that want what Porsche uses and a very good, easy to use, self coaching solution. Have sold three hundred fifty in four and a half years.

Pros and cons for each. I don’t have a favorite, until I find out what is important to you. It’s why is sell many different options.

PM me of you like and we can talk on the phone or via email.

 

I agree with Peter - we need to know a little more before being able to really make a suggestion. What level do you drive at now? What groups? And probably most important - how much effort do you want to put into data? The Garmin really isn't a data device as a much as a computerized instructor. The Apex is similar in giving in car instruction with the lights, but also has downloadable data with video overlay for later review.

The devices are all different and offer different things. Some take more effort than others to extract the power and value of them. Once we know about you, we can help out more. I'm a bit different than Peter in that instead of trying to learn a number of different brands, I specialize in AiM hardware and software. While the fundamentals of the systems are all very similar, I've found it best for me, my customers, and business to really understand one system and excel at it. With that knowledge, if AiM isn't the solution for someone, it's easy to tell them.

Post up about you and then we can see what fits. These threads are great as they really help you and other people how come across it. Having the system pros, cons, and peoples requirements to see has helped a ton of people on Rennlist over the years and folks who find it from Google.

Let the data journey start!

 

Hi
Ok, some background.

Tracked my first 911 (997.2 in 2011) a few times; liked it, but didn’t get nearly enough seat time. Upgraded to a 991.1 GTS with the hope of getting more track time. Didn’t happen; took a few years off and decided to get back into it this year (great timing). Traded for a 991.2 GT3 in June with the thought that I will get as much track time as I can. Moved up after my first track day this year (LRP); was only able to get one day in.

I am a software developer (sort of); I like gadgets. Having to configure and setup the backend for any of these isn’t a problem. Platform isn’t a problem (although I’d prefer OS X I guess). I’ve messed around with GoPros and various iOS apps but they’re all sort of hacky to me - they work, but not great and they’re sort of kludgey. Maybe I haven’t put enough energy into setting them up correctly. I would like a complete system that works though - I don’t mind connecting multiple platforms and devices but it needs to work. I like things that are overbuilt or at least well built.

As I’m still yellow, I’m with an instructor all the time. I don’t want to do anything that’s going to insult whichever instructor is assigned to me. I also don’t want to look like a poser - I am ok buying something better than I need right now so I can work towards growing into it (I mean... I’m driving a GT3 so it’s obvious that I believe in growing into things :-) but I don’t want to show up in something that’s WAY over my skill level and looks ridiculous. I want something that I can look at after to say “I was doing 110 into this turn on the first lap and 115 on the second lap, which helped me shave X seconds off the back straight”, “I missed the apex here by 20 meters and that resulted in X”, “i was off the line here by 5 meters and X resulted” kind of thing - which I think means I need it aligned with a video. Maybe, I could also get some kind of “I was in third gear here and I should’ve been in second gear” and “I was at X% throttle and could’ve been at y%” or “I was at X% brake and could’ve been at y%” - but that’s less important. An in car display would be helpful (but again, I am with an instructor so I’ll be listening to the instructor at least for the next few run groups).

I think that covers it...

Thanks
Bradd

 

Good info.

My approach is different from Matt's.

My background, as one of the first professional coach/instructors focused on the HPDE/Track Day and Club Racing driver, was and is entirely built around recording and collecting actual, objective information of a driver's performance, then distilling it all down to one or two goals for the next session. I've made a very good living at it for the last fifteen years, after owning a successful race and track day preparation business for two decades before that.

I've learned what works and what doesn't, having one-on-one and/or classroom interaction with tens of thousands of drivers in school and competition settings. As time went on, I became less rigid in my approach, and began to listen more and be open to a broad range of learning methodologies. One thing that hasn't changed? Video, for me and for almost everyone who makes big gains, is MANDATORY. But, there's a difference between just video (or intelligent video, with information on it) and an integrated, analytical approach.

My goal is to supply equipment that allows drivers to coach themselves. But, the technology does get in the way of that goal, albeit less so now. As GUI (and AI, in the case of the Apex Pro and the Garmin Catalyst) improves, people can get the right information quicker and more easily to improve their own performance and drive quicker, with less effort and less risk. Why less risk? Because limited, targeted and incremental study raises concentration level, increases comfort, confidence and accuracy. That's one of the greatest benefits of reviewing the information.

I've also learned that NO ONE SYSTEM does everything we'd like it to do. While professional teams and support shops may rely on dedicated personnel to collect the information from the logger and camera, arrange the information, analyze, evaluate and suggest a plan for the next session, few track day, HPDE drivers or club racing drivers have that luxury, especially if they are their own crew. Systems like AiM and MoTeC are very powerful, very configurable and can provide great information, providing you know what you're looking for.

For me, the most successful systems for my personal use and for those I sell to and support, are those that reduce the number of operational steps, minimize the need for special and learned knowledge required to operate and interpret the information and give me the most valuable information for targeted improvement in the least amount of time AT THE TRACK.

With MoTeC an AiM, certainly you can sift through, arrange and review the data in the evening and between events, but typically in my capacity at the track, where my time is very expensive, the driver I am working with and I need a device (I often use more than one) and a workflow that allows us to know definitively the information you seek marked in bold above WITHIN TEN MINUTES max. Then, you have time to change tires, get gas, go to class, secure in the knowledge of one or two pieces of "low hanging fruit" that you'll attack next session. Easy. That's what is most important. If it's not easy, you won't use it. And there are a LOT of people that don't use the tools they have.

This is why I am such an advocate of "simple is better." Starting with Race Technology in 2001, Traqmate in 2004, Race-Keeper and CDS in 2007, AiM in 2009, VBOX in 2010, MoTeC in 2011, Apex Pro in 2016 and now the Catalyst from Garmin, the advent of GPS based video and data logging systems have gotten better and easier to use. And this is one of the reasons I carry and have carried them all.

I'll send you some mail, Bradd. I think we need to talk at length about what would work best for you. Then, we can both feel good with your choice

 

I don't think Peter and my own approach varies at the equipment level of using and selling things that just work. We always agree that drivers (and teams) all have limited resources and time. From there, data systems are a tool just like a wrench. Having the wrong tool is often as good as having no tool.

Here is a great video Eric Myer of Instructor Summit did with Jay Dee Krull from Garmin. It explains a ton about the device. From what you posted, I'm not sure it's the best choice for you. If you want to look at data, the Catalyst won't give you that. The Apex Pro has similar guided coaching on track, but also has a data component in both it's iOS app and by using TraqAttack. Eric is a big proponent of that and it works great for huge contingent of folks throughout NASA GL and the world! Andrew Rains and his team have come really far since I bought one of their first units at PRI all those years ago. They have a terrific device that solves the needs of a lot of people. If you want data and video, then you are looking at a different set of equipment like an AiM Solo 2 DL and SCHD, vBox, etc. If you are at LRP, Watkins Glen, Palmer, Thompson, etc., you are right in my neck of the woods. Their is a huge AiM user base up here along with tons of power users in all the clubs. Some clubs even have loaner setups!

I'll post some more later too!

 

Here's a first look at the Garmin Catalyst, with my good friend Eric Meyer.

 

Never worry about looking like a poser. Worry about being safe, having fun, and getting faster.

Sounds like we work in similar fields, and I would vote for the Aim Solo 2 DL. On the day the predictive lap timer is great to quickly try new things and improve in different sectors. After the fact you get a load of data from modern car's through the CAN bus which is fun to play with and useful. The whole thing is plug and play on the day which is nice, and <$1000.

 

I've gone down the slippery slope for many years. Started with Harry's timer, go pros(Hate them) and now have a solo DL for many years with the addition of a Smartycam.
I consider myself a techie engineer so I was never afraid of anything.
The catalyst is just a no-brainer simple DIGITAL COACH. Session debrief is literally five seconds after you come off track. Automatically breaking down track into sectors with video it's just incredible
A friend of mine and I went in halves and added a second base/camera.
We trade the catalyst between sessions.

I'm sure over the next few months, years the Catalyst will only get better.

 

I’ve got fresh Catalyst and suction cup for the camera stock today, plus extra cameras, cable, cases, 12V hardwired power transformers and the proper locking mount (for those that think they need one).

A high percentage of purchasers have an AiM or MoTeC setup, use Harry’s or even have factory supplied Cosworth systems in their cars. This is just a much simpler, completely self-contained system. Of direct benefit to drivers, both in real time and immediately post session.

Free shipping and camera suction cup mount (easier to move from car to car, or take out of the car between events) if ordered and paid for before 12/20.

 

I have tried many tools and here is my recommended progression of them:

1. start with Porsche Track Precision assuming your car is equipped for it. it will gave you a good set of data and good video.
2. if you want more you go to the catalyst as this will get you decent video and impressive in car and post session coaching
3. then if you still want more you go to a VBOX HD to get really good video and the ability better compare laps between your sessions and with others
4. if you really want to jump into the deep afterwards AND your car has sensors that you want to exploit that you cant exploit using the VBOX you go with a Motec or AIM system

price/improvement/performance sweetspot is the the catalyst.

 

I like your current setup, @MarcD147

Cosworth/VBOX/Catalyst, FTW!

As I've said countless times before, there is no ONE system that does everything teams, and especially drivers, need the best...

 

For those that don't want to read a story, skip to the Conclusion in the last paragraph.

In my case, and I don't think I am alone here, I have been through a series of admittedly self induced driving plateaus. In order to move it up a notch, I have done all that most of us have done, gotten coaching, bought numerous data logging devices, such as AiM Mxl 2, to AiM SOLO, and SOLO 2 DL.....unfortunately, I was never able to find the time between sessions to look at the AiM data, too many chores to do before the next session. End of the day for data review was best case, but generally my data review didn't come until the next week, at my data coach's shop. So in the case of the AiM SOLO and SOLO 2DL, I was pretty much limited to viewing the Red/Green light predictive lapping feature. The Green light was telling me I was at my best, the Red lights were telling me I was less than my best. The most obvious question comes up, where and what was I better, where and why was I worse? I would get my best 3 laps.

Next step, I got a Smartycam ($1,000), and connected it to my SOLO 2 DL, and had CAN bus data fed into the SOLO 2 DL. It was eye opening seeing the high quality video, with RPM, speed, lap times, etc., but something was missing, I still really didn't know where specific improvement opportunities could be found. I could look at my best lap video, but there was no way to view side by side videos, to see what I was getting "more" right, and not so right. I did send off several videos to Pro-Coach David Scott for coaching assessment, awesome, but I could not get the assessment the day(s) I was at the track, it would have to with until the following week, needing to upload the video to VIMEO and send that link along.

My next patch was to integrate APEX PRO App into my repertoire, less than $600, and I could use my iPhone. Incredible device, their 12 LED Green/Red light array, provided in essence, "real time" coaching, letting me know how much of the tires grip was being used, especially helpful in the corners, post session lap times and key data such as comparative speed traces was immediately available, and recently, video capability was added, using the iPhone as camera. For me, I needed just a little more, heretofore unavailable, audio coaching .

Last September, Garmin introduces the Catalyst, of which Peter Krause was involved from before the product hit the market. Ross Bentley was involved with the Catalyst development, another good sign. Damn, it looked too good to be true. First big plus, made by Garmin, so likely it's a quality product, and with Peter as a dealer, a big plus. I discovered the Catalyst provides multiple levels of audio coaching, in addition to a Predictive Lap display. If that was not enough, post session, Catalyst provides three (3) OPPORTUNITIES to attack next session. On the screen with each of the OPPORTUNITIES, the user receives critical feed back as to how much time can be gained in each corner, if the driver executes on the tips provided. The Catalyst looks back at your most recent as well as earlier session at a particular track, and computes the OPTIMAL lap, consolidated from all your best segments. On the OPPORTUNITIES screen, you are always comparing the OPTIMAL lap segment against your performance.

Bottom line, the Catalyst meets my needs for "real-time" coaching, and presents me with easily decipherable post session data. It is a self contained unit requiring only 12 V power, earbuds can be Bluetooth or a direct plug in, or get coaching over your car's stereo using Bluetooth. And did I mention, it comes with a HD camera! All of this for $999.99.

I have retained my APEX PRO, I love their array, and what it tells me about available tire grip. As expected, APEX PRO provides post session times of the previous laps, as well as come conventional data logging displays such as speed traces. I fear the SOLO 2 DL and the Smartycam may be headed doer the dust bin.

Conclusion: Buy the Garmin Catalyst. Its unique features are a bargain at $999.99. Once you have used it, you won't look back. If you are lucky, you'll have a friend that owns one. Perhaps you borrow it for a session, participate in the audio coaching, look at your OPPORTUNITIES for the next session. Once you have returned the borrowed unit, expect to go into withdrawals.

As Marc mentions above, "Price/improvement/performance sweet spot is the the Catalyst."