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I just spent that past 1.5 hours reading every individual post so PHEWW lol
This thread is fantastic though, I have not purchased my 2012 Cayenne S (Monday I will) but im taking the time from this weekend to read on this forum educate myself see what can be done DIY what part #'s are, reliability etc just a thorough look over on here basically
My soon to be CS has 64 thousand miles and the carfax doesn't have any reference from going to the dealer for any TC issues however I did see at 28k 40k & 54k Miles Engine/powertrain computer/module checked.. not sure if that's anything but worth noting
To play it safe having that little extra peace of mind ill pick up 2 Qts of Raveno drain and fill.. wait a few weeks and do the same I would like to see a recall issued with the new part # but from what I've read maybe by the end of the year
so I drove it around for a couple of weeks and noise on left turn changed and got quieter. I also change front and rear diff fluids. The rear was black but front was relatively clean.
I changed the TC fluid again for a second time this morning and hopefully the noise goes away. Will report back.
so I drove it around for a couple of weeks and noise on left turn changed and got quieter. I also change front and rear diff fluids. The rear was black but front was relatively clean.
I changed the TC fluid again for a second time this morning and hopefully the noise goes away. Will report back.
let us know man - I have about 500 miles on my 2012 and I'm debating on doing this I know I should but so far haven't heard any "walnuts" or felt any issues although the CS needs a little extra throttle to reverse
Changing the TC fluid merely makes the problem go away for a while. As is now quite obvious based on the suggested fix from Porsche, the underlying cause is due to the flawed vent line design, and unless you either a) regularly change the fluid or b) install the rerouted vent line, the problem will return. Also, there's a distinct chance that damage was done if the transfer case fluid degraded badly. I just had mine replaced (under CPO warranty, at 75000 miles). It took about a month to get the part(s), but the install/swap only took 2 hours.
Changing the TC fluid merely makes the problem go away for a while.
And you know this because? Do you have some data that supports this statement?
Originally Posted by RickBullotta
As is now quite obvious based on the suggested fix from Porsche, the underlying cause is due to the flawed vent line design, and unless you either a) regularly change the fluid or b) install the rerouted vent line, the problem will return. Also, there's a distinct chance that damage was done if the transfer case fluid degraded badly. I just had mine replaced (under CPO warranty, at 75000 miles). It took about a month to get the part(s), but the install/swap only took 2 hours.
I don't know how obvious the vent issue was - since it took Porsche 4 years or so to figure that out. It would seem if they got back transfer cases and bothered to drain the oil and do a failure analysis - this would have been detected earlier.
I suspect it IS an issue if you commonly drive on flooded roads. The air-scoop mounted on the bottom of the TC certainly isn't helping since it will also scoop up water and throw it toward the top of the transfer case.
If that was the only issue - it would be hard to explain failures occurring in dry climates where it almost never rains. And we've seen these.
There certainly is a possibility the transfer case was damaged by degraded lubricant, but the possibility also exists that it wasn't - and a fluid change might extend the life of the TC. Since it's (a) cheap (b) easy to do - I see no reason not to try it before replacing the TC (unless of course if you have a warranty company happy to pay for a new TC - then go for it.)
BTW - you may have seen my suggestion of every-other-oil-change for the interval to change the TC oil. Doing it at every oil change also isn't unreasonable since it's (a) cheap (b) easy to do.
Yup - absolutely worth a try. I think you're in the same general area as me, and we drive wet/flooded roads all the time, so I went for plan "B". I'm sure a lack of warranty would have pushed me to plan "A"!
so I drive it to work today and the noise is muted even more but I can still feel it in the steering wheel. Will see after a while more if it goes away.
So any chances Porsche will make a recall on this?
I would say - no. They might do a workshop campaign.
There is a big distinction:
RECALLS are to address SAFETY ISSUES - where there is a reasonable risk of someone being injured or killed due to the failure of some part of the vehicle, or function of the vehicle. Airbags that explode too hard in your face - that has killed people - it's a recall. Engines that stall, taking out the power steering and power brake boost - that could kill someone - it's a recall. A recall can be initiated by a manufacturer - which they usually do after they're told by NHTSA that they're being investigated, and to turn over all documents related to some reported fault. Or it can be mandated by NHTSA when the manufacturer refuses to initiate the recall on their own. The manufacturer eats all the costs involved with the recall, but may pass some of the parts expense back to the OE manufacturer who actually made the part that's failing. The manufacturer also is required by law to reimburse owners who have repaired the issue before the recall was announced at their own expense.
Workshop Campaigns are notifications and directions to the dealership service departments on how to address issues that the manufacturer feels should be addressed. In general - the expense of these is only covered by the manufacturer if the vehicle is still under warranty. There are some exceptions to that - particularly if the manufacturer is trying to avoid issuing a recall for the problem. In some cases the campaign only kicks in if a problem is experienced, in other instances any vehicle under warranty that arrives at the dealers has the campaign done to it.
I think we may see a Workshop-Campaign - that allows the dealer to transfer at least part of the cost of the transfer case replacement to the manufacturer of the transfer-case.
The way that usually works is - the owner pays labor. Porsche provides the part for free. They can provide the part for free - because the supplier of the part is eating the cost (if they ever want to be an OE supplier for Porsche in the future) and Porsche is passing along the freebee.
That's what I expect we'll see. It will probably be done on an "as they fail" basis - where any broken ones brought to the dealer are covered. Unbroken ones - since they aren't a "safety" issue - continue being used until they do break. Sometimes with Workshop-Campaigns, the manufacturer will extend the warranty on that specific part for some period of miles/time (100k-miles, 6 year - from in-service date.) BMW loves to do that to avoid recalls. After the extended warranty is up - you're on your own.
All theory - but I have followed these sort of things for some time, and that's the usual German MO..
So any chances Porsche will make a recall on this?
No use differentiating between 'Campaign' and 'Recall' in this case because I think what's really being asked here is "do we have a chance in hell that Porsche is going to start covering these failures out of warranty".
According to my dealer SA when I was in there getting on their list for the variocam bolt recall, the answer is likely to be 'yes'. He said the number of replacements at this point is incredible and 958 TCs are still on backorder. Porsche is considering providing some relief on this, as this has gained a lot of attention within PNA. So stay tuned.
I guess the good news is the revised TC along with the new associated components like the vent kit and splash shield are reported to fix the problem(s) per PNA. I guess time will tell, as mine got all the new stuff just a couple months ago.
First post in this thread - bought a brand new 2016 Cayenne V6 last year, it has 11k miles on it. It developed a very bad off-idle acceleration problem, basically a 1-3 second delay in linear acceleration from idle.
The dealer just informed us that it needs a new x-fer case and they had to get it from Germany. It did not feel like slippage or mechanical issue but rather an electrical issue. I was betting on the ignition coil problem. Perhaps its a sensor inside the case that was monitoring slippage and the computer was trying to adjust for it.
The guy told me that they unplugged the sensor on the x-fer case and drove it around to determine that was the problem. He also told me that the new x-fer case will be the upgraded version. I asked for any documentation about the upgrade, he said there is nothing. Again, only 11k miles, and its my wife's rig, she drives it very casually. Must have been the rain water on the road that made it into the case via the vent pipe, contaminating the fluid? Ill report back as soon as I drive it.
Edit: 07/25 - Autobahn Porsche in FTW TX says its ready, new upgraded x-fer case. Will pick it up tomorrow. I will ask to speak with the tech as well as service manager to acquire as much info as possible, not sure they will have as much experience as they would in California but anything will help.
I will drain oil asap and put in something better, trying to figure that out now.
... "do we have a chance in hell that Porsche is going to start covering these failures out of warranty".
... the answer is likely to be 'yes'.
I guess the good news is the revised TC along with the new associated components like the vent kit and splash shield are reported to fix the problem(s) per PNA. I guess time will tell, as mine got all the new stuff just a couple months ago.
I hope so too since I got my Xfr case replaced a couple months ago too.
And I'm proof that they will, and have indeed replaced the TC outside of warranty. Zero cost to me. I was a year out of warranty, had 45k miles on my '12 CTT, and my dealership KNOWS that I autocross it hard. They are fine with that, and even applaud that I drive it the way a "Porsche" should be driven. "Good Will", so my dealer got paid anyway.
Now my next concern is the differentials, since I have PTV & I'm starting to feel walnuts back there. Diff fluid coming up next, but I'll be paying for the oil on this one myself.
I just changed the oil in my TC and the oil does have a burnt smell. Maybe I was lucky or was preemptive enough that but I did not hear the walnuts cracking. Like other posts here the oil change should smooth out the shifting. I will know more tomorrow once the P!G sits over night. This oil does look pretty bad and is inline with all the other pictures on this thread.
I plan on changing the oil again in about two to four weeks. I will post the second oil change once complete.
Obvious question, why is the fluid getting dirty? The wet clutches in motorcycles get dirty from the fiber rings and aluminum clutch plates wearing against each other, the engine case also has a vent tube which may suck water/dirt occasionally. If the Porsche solution is to reroute the vent tube then that is to help prevent dust and water from being directed into the x-fer case and contaminating the oil. If that is the problem, then we might consider adding a filter as well, for example...
If the oil is being contaminated by clutch pack wear then the only solution is to change the oil regularly. The clutch inside the x-fer case is designed to slip, thereby creating friction/heat which burns the oil. Certain oils will cause more slippage (less drive) while others will cause less slippage (drive train wear).
So, what other brands use wet clutch x-fer cases and don't have these problems? There must be some sort of racing application, perhaps better clutch packs?
I am only trying to make suggestions here, not claiming to be an expert at all.
The oil needs to allow the proper amount of slippage while also enduring a tremendous amount of heat and friction without breaking down (cooked).
I change the oil in my dirt bikes every couple of rides because of all of the above - dirt, friction, fiber wear, aluminum & steel wear, and of course - heat. Every time I change it, it is black as hell. Many times we will replace the aluminum clutch plates with steel for obvious reasons.
Installing the vent filter and using the best/proper oil may increase the time between oil changes but I think the design is ultimately the problem. Too much heat, friction, and wear for the modern oils to handle?
I will start researching which other brands have a similar wet-clutch x-fer case and see what they use for oil and how often they have to change it.
I will also find out where the new vent tube ends and consider rigging a filter on the end.
Edit: The filter in the link that I attached is a small box with a foam filter inside, the box will keep out moisture and the filter will keep out the fine dust that is common in DFW Texas.
BMW xdrive uses wet clutch pack in x-fer case as well, however it appears they use sensors to monitor slippage and plate thickness and alert when it is time for an oil change. BMW recommends a BMW branded fluid, specs are not known.
Audi/VW use the same x-fer case as Porsche according to a few forums, not 100% sure about this yet.
Porsche TSB 2/04 3965 X-fer case oil spec:
Esso ESSO Mobil ATF LT 71141 Spec.
cSt @ 40º C 37.2
cSt @ 100ºC 7.4
Viscosity Index, ASTM D 2270 168
Density @15º C g/ml, ASTM D 4052 0.855
Flashpoint 219 Celsius
Possible ATF alternatives (so far, still researching)
07-08-2017, 06:49 PM
