PN Cal

NC 997, you should have gotten to the Bay Area, easily 10% off on Touaregs, even TDI. That tells a lot about value holding in the future. The Porsche Cayenne Diesel, usually maybe 2 % off, sometimes more, but not in the first official offer or even advertised.
As already mentioned, the Touareg is a nice car, but you only can get packages and no individualization. Plus it is a big Golf, nothing more. The Cayenne is much nicer. When test-driving both, I only two plus for the VW, a) the navigation screen is bigger, b) it seems to be quieter than the Cayenne Diesel, especially in idle. But apart from that, I would make our decision again, going for the Cayenne Diesel.

patrickt888

RESP: seeing you are from Edmonton, did your CD comes with Block Heater ?

Sorry to go off topic here.

gnat

What about the AWD systems? I know the Cayenne uses Porsche's own system, but are the Audi and VW using that craptastic Haldex system they use on their other cars (except the A4 which is the last real Quattro)?

If they use a Haldex system that would be a massive plus for the Cayenne in my opinion.

RESP

To patrick,

no block heater offered or requested.
No problems through 2 winters down to -40's.

Love the heated steering wheel and seats!!

steve_Cayenne

The Touareg 4motion uses a Torsen (aka quattro) centre diff, like the Cayenne Diesel and Hybrid. Not the "craptastic" Haldex system.

Some markets also have the hard core 4xmotion available for Touareg, more like old Cayenne real 4x4 (low range transfer case).

Other new Cayennes use the more dynamic electronically controlled clutch based center diff.

gnat

I'm glad to hear that the real Quattro lives on in something other than just the A4.

I though the AWD system that Porsche used (on all its cars) was a similar design to the old Quattro but still their own system. Not true?

steve_Cayenne

Gotta be careful with fact vs marketing terminology when talking AWD.

Quattro is technically just an Audi trade name for any AWD they throw in any of their vehicles. Case in point:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Audi_A3
Although dubbed "quattro", the S3 uses a different "on-demand" four-wheel drive system.[4] The Haldex Traction coupling adjusts the bias of torque distribution from the front to rear axle as grip requirements change – most of the time it operates as a front-wheel drive.

In "common-speak", and your context, you use quattro to mean one of several generations/types of Audi AWD that use a Torsen centre differential.

"Torsen" is a type of limited slip differential, and stands for TORque SENsing.

JKEKT Torsen Inc, the company, manufactures Torsen type diffs. But so do other companies.

Haldex AB, the company, manufactures Haldex type diffs.

Both of above are used by Audi, and dubbed quattro.

Electronically controlled multiplate clutch is another type of diff.

Old cayenne had a true 4x4 low range locking differential.
New Cayenne Hybrid / Diesel use Torsen.
Other New Cayenne use electronically controlled multi-plate clutch type.
911 also uses electronically controlled multi-plate clutch type (nothing to do with quattro).

"quattro/Torsen" type systems don't give a heavy rear bias like a 911 needs!

gnat

Yeap. I did not know the Torsen name which is why I referred to the the "real" (as in an actual useful system) Quattro vs the Haldex. Last I heard all the A series cars other than the A4 were using the Haldex (because they are actually FWD cars).

Haldex is fine for the soccer moms that want to feel they are unstoppable in "bad" weather, but for a sport type of application (like the Audis are supposed to be) it falls down horribly when you actually start pushing them to the limit. The issue is that it is front bias (usually only 5% going to the rear) and there is actually a noticeable delay in it shifting power to the rear. It's enough that if you're already at the limit in a corner it will start to corner like a nose heavy FWD car and kick in the rear wheels just about the time you've started to correct for that. It can be very disconcerting the first couple of times it happens to you as it feels like the car has changed it's mind halfway through the corner (which it kinda did).

Anyway. Glad to know that the Q and T have useful AWD systems.

steve_Cayenne

Same marketing trade names mumbo-jumbo. Yes the crappy version of Haldex is crappy. But would you believe the Lamborghini Aventador, Land Rover, and Bugatti Veyron, and many other nice cars also use Haldex AWD?

What? The Veyron uses craptastic technology? Steve is surely off his rocker! Well, check out the list on Wikipedia:

Vehicles equipped with Haldex AWD
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haldex_Traction

gnat

Interesting. I guess that is my something new for today.

That was a good read that I hadn't stumbled across before, though it would be nice to have some details on the latest system. It indeed sounds like it is getting better, but it will take awhile to get rid of the bad taste I got from scaring an Audi dealer on a test drive

I don't put much stock in the Veyron as most reviews seem to agree it doesn't corner well (relatively speaking). Most attribute that to its insane power, weight, and suspension dynamics. Given my bias I wouldn't object to laying some blame on the Haldex though

The Lambo is another beast entirely though as it seems to get universally good reviews on its handling and cornering. Slightly out of my budget just to change my mind about Haldex though (though it is the first one I've liked since the 80s)

So I'll stand by my view that the older affordable ones are crap (for spirited driving) and admit that in theory (until I can fling one around myself) their higher end and/or newer systems shouldn't be dismissed quite as easily.

steve_Cayenne

Here is another good read, if you enjoyed the first one

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quattro...-drive_system)