SUVs: World's most dangerous vehicles...
12-18-2002, 01:08 PM
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SUVs: World's most dangerous vehicles...
Just read a book review of "HIGH AND MIGHTY SUVs: The World's Most Dangerous Vehicles and How They Got That Way" by Keith Bradshaw in the Dec. 18th edition of the International Herald Tribune.
It states that according to the federal government, the SUV is a truck.
Some highlights:
"It's a truck for purposes of the Clean Air Act of 1990, passed by Congress to update the laws limiting smog-causing emissions. The act has less-stringent limits for trucks (local contractors need them for work, you see), so getting SUVs classified as trucks is a political feat worth quite a bit to the auto industry... Thus the Explorer's pricier cousin, the Lincoln Navigator, is considered a truck for purposes of calculating the 10 percent luxury tax the 1990 Congress slapped onc cars with price tags of $30,000. or more. That law, exempted, 'light trucks'... The SUV it turns out is a vehicle of aggresion, a machine to menace other people with... SUVs are more dangerous in some collisions than other cars, tend to roll over more, pollute the air more, get worse gas mileage,... Bradsher calls SUVs the world's most dangerous vehicles (and cites data to prove it), but it would be equally accurate to say it's the most anti-social... Looking down on passing traffic gives some illusion of highway command... tippy monstrosities... block other driver's view of the road and inflict massive damage during collisions... SUV drivers are anxious about safety, but Detriot has conned them into thinking that a bigger, heavier, taller vehicle is safe because it feels strong and intimidating and looks likely to 'demolish other people's cars in collisions', as Bradsher writes.
... a serious journalist has to explain how this inferior, dangerous and antisocial product surged in market share during the 1990s...."
It states that according to the federal government, the SUV is a truck.
Some highlights:
"It's a truck for purposes of the Clean Air Act of 1990, passed by Congress to update the laws limiting smog-causing emissions. The act has less-stringent limits for trucks (local contractors need them for work, you see), so getting SUVs classified as trucks is a political feat worth quite a bit to the auto industry... Thus the Explorer's pricier cousin, the Lincoln Navigator, is considered a truck for purposes of calculating the 10 percent luxury tax the 1990 Congress slapped onc cars with price tags of $30,000. or more. That law, exempted, 'light trucks'... The SUV it turns out is a vehicle of aggresion, a machine to menace other people with... SUVs are more dangerous in some collisions than other cars, tend to roll over more, pollute the air more, get worse gas mileage,... Bradsher calls SUVs the world's most dangerous vehicles (and cites data to prove it), but it would be equally accurate to say it's the most anti-social... Looking down on passing traffic gives some illusion of highway command... tippy monstrosities... block other driver's view of the road and inflict massive damage during collisions... SUV drivers are anxious about safety, but Detriot has conned them into thinking that a bigger, heavier, taller vehicle is safe because it feels strong and intimidating and looks likely to 'demolish other people's cars in collisions', as Bradsher writes.
... a serious journalist has to explain how this inferior, dangerous and antisocial product surged in market share during the 1990s...."
12-18-2002, 01:34 PM
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Phil, I saw Keith Bradshaw give a presentation on his book to the association of automative journalists in Detroit on C-Span TV (I know, get a life) a couple of weeks ago. His book is incredibly well-researched and makes for good reading. He goes to great lengths to distinguish small SUVs/estates based on car platforms because they don't have the same roll-over, fatality, gas guzzling, and other drawbacks as the behemoth SUV's.
12-18-2002, 04:19 PM
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Well guys.. We may agree on the Cayenne, but I am am not an SUV hater.
Personaly I find that it is far to easy to hate the SUV and call it horribly dangerious and wasteful. These (in my mind) stupid an short sighted comments. I have not read the book in question and do not plan to. I do not agree with its tone or assertions (as giving in the title and excerpts).
My feeling is this.
The SUV has role to play in our automotive future. It is a vehicle with a purpose and is a truck. My problem is that at least 75% of all SUVs are bought by people who don't need them and will never use the features they provide. I agree that they are not the super safety vehicle their manufactures and the general public feel they are. The are be design less capable and safe on the road as compared to normal cars or station wagons (estates if you prefer). I feel however these traits are necessary evils for an SUV since these traits make them more useful than cars in many situations. Too bad 75% or more of their owners never use them for these activites.
If we could only go back to the days before the Ford Exploder when people bought SUV because they needed their truck like and off-road cabililties. The days when you did not buy one for status but as compromise between a pick-up truck and Jeep CJ.
Back in 83 my parents bought an S-10 Blazer. Why because we needed space to haul the family and lived on a dirt road that turned to Mud in the rain so we needed clearance 4wheel drive to get out in the wet. Pick-up truck would not work since the were too big and used too much gas in full size form and the little trucks of the day were too small at the time. Jeep CJ... possible, but not enough utillity at the time. Blazer was just the right size to do the job asked of it.
Remember Old days
4x4 Pick-up = hauls tons of gear & Can hold is own off road, but no space for people and it gets BIG!
Jeep CJ = Small, nimble, maneuverable, go anywhere, some passenger space or minimal cargo
Take the best of both = SUV
Today
SUV = SOCCER MOM Mobile... aka a total waste!
Now if people would just get their heads out of the thier a$$es and just buy station wagons and mini vans and quit buying these stupid SUV that they never use them properly the world would be a better place.
<img src="graemlins/soapbox.gif" border="0" alt="[soapbox]" />
Personaly I find that it is far to easy to hate the SUV and call it horribly dangerious and wasteful. These (in my mind) stupid an short sighted comments. I have not read the book in question and do not plan to. I do not agree with its tone or assertions (as giving in the title and excerpts).
My feeling is this.
The SUV has role to play in our automotive future. It is a vehicle with a purpose and is a truck. My problem is that at least 75% of all SUVs are bought by people who don't need them and will never use the features they provide. I agree that they are not the super safety vehicle their manufactures and the general public feel they are. The are be design less capable and safe on the road as compared to normal cars or station wagons (estates if you prefer). I feel however these traits are necessary evils for an SUV since these traits make them more useful than cars in many situations. Too bad 75% or more of their owners never use them for these activites.
If we could only go back to the days before the Ford Exploder when people bought SUV because they needed their truck like and off-road cabililties. The days when you did not buy one for status but as compromise between a pick-up truck and Jeep CJ.
Back in 83 my parents bought an S-10 Blazer. Why because we needed space to haul the family and lived on a dirt road that turned to Mud in the rain so we needed clearance 4wheel drive to get out in the wet. Pick-up truck would not work since the were too big and used too much gas in full size form and the little trucks of the day were too small at the time. Jeep CJ... possible, but not enough utillity at the time. Blazer was just the right size to do the job asked of it.
Remember Old days
4x4 Pick-up = hauls tons of gear & Can hold is own off road, but no space for people and it gets BIG!
Jeep CJ = Small, nimble, maneuverable, go anywhere, some passenger space or minimal cargo
Take the best of both = SUV
Today
SUV = SOCCER MOM Mobile... aka a total waste!
Now if people would just get their heads out of the thier a$$es and just buy station wagons and mini vans and quit buying these stupid SUV that they never use them properly the world would be a better place.
<img src="graemlins/soapbox.gif" border="0" alt="[soapbox]" />
12-19-2002, 09:16 AM
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M758, it turns out that your statements mirror the hypotheses and findings of the author of the book Phil cites. Sorry. It's a very astute read and takes a detailed snapshop to capture the meritorious uses of SUV's and trucks, large and small, as well as the fact that they are not the super-safe modes of transportation the public thinks they are. While the title is catchy, the book doesn't condemn all uses and all modes of SUV's and trucks.
12-19-2002, 10:44 AM
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The SUV is a peculiar anachronism - in a time when the world is focused on reducing emissions, greenhouse gases, and energy security; the SUV is enjoying unparalleled popularity.
But don't blame Detroit and don't blame the oil companies or even your government officials. Accountability for the rise of SUV sales must lie with those of us in the United States. We have asked for larger vehicles and the automakers have obliged - in fact they made it easier for us. They lobbied hard against Corporate Average Fuel Economy Standards. Why? Because we wanted them too.
Whether its a soccer mom (I have one in my family, how about you?), the Dad who needs 4X4 to get through slippery conditions to get to work, the guy who pulls his boat or jet skis, or the college kid who just needs to haul stuff; it doesn't really matter because I would bet none of you have actively protested against the SUV.
But now that Porsche builds an SUV, everyone is up in arms. What a despicable vehicle you say - how could Porsche sell out? Well...maybe its time we all take an honest and long introspective look at ourselves. The answer is right there. If you truly object to the SUV in principle, start writing letters to your public officials and say so.
Just my opinion.
But don't blame Detroit and don't blame the oil companies or even your government officials. Accountability for the rise of SUV sales must lie with those of us in the United States. We have asked for larger vehicles and the automakers have obliged - in fact they made it easier for us. They lobbied hard against Corporate Average Fuel Economy Standards. Why? Because we wanted them too.
Whether its a soccer mom (I have one in my family, how about you?), the Dad who needs 4X4 to get through slippery conditions to get to work, the guy who pulls his boat or jet skis, or the college kid who just needs to haul stuff; it doesn't really matter because I would bet none of you have actively protested against the SUV.
But now that Porsche builds an SUV, everyone is up in arms. What a despicable vehicle you say - how could Porsche sell out? Well...maybe its time we all take an honest and long introspective look at ourselves. The answer is right there. If you truly object to the SUV in principle, start writing letters to your public officials and say so.
Just my opinion.
12-19-2002, 12:37 PM
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SUV's fill a need: how else do i drive 3 people and 5 dogs over to Sonoita AZ and spend the weeks in 4WD on high speed dirt and mud, and in low range on narrow, nasty mining roads without a Yukon XL? i wish the cayenne was a big as an XL, then i'd have the perfect truck.
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12-19-2002, 01:32 PM
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[quote]Originally posted by watt:
<strong>SUV's fill a need: how else do i drive 3 people and 5 dogs over to Sonoita AZ and spend the weeks in 4WD on high speed dirt and mud, and in low range on narrow, nasty mining roads without a Yukon XL? i wish the cayenne was a big as an XL, then i'd have the perfect truck.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Watt... those very legitmate uses for an SUV... it is too bad that we are really in the minority of SUV owners..
98 Jeep Cherokee (XJ) with 4.5" lift and battle scars
<strong>SUV's fill a need: how else do i drive 3 people and 5 dogs over to Sonoita AZ and spend the weeks in 4WD on high speed dirt and mud, and in low range on narrow, nasty mining roads without a Yukon XL? i wish the cayenne was a big as an XL, then i'd have the perfect truck.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Watt... those very legitmate uses for an SUV... it is too bad that we are really in the minority of SUV owners..
98 Jeep Cherokee (XJ) with 4.5" lift and battle scars
12-19-2002, 01:41 PM
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Ahh, yes... the days (BE - Before Explorer) when the only SUVs out there were Jeeps and the occasional Bronco. I had an 86 Jeep from new till sometime around '94... lived in Wyoming where 4x4 was usefull (mountains, snow and other nasty stuff, ya know?) - LOVED that I could haul 4~5 people and all their mountain bikes up a nasty incline (or the same people and gear but with skis over mountain passes). But, think about it... what percentage of SUV drivers today use any of the ability for more than a week or two out of the year? My GF has an Explorer (2wd even, with leathe.. LMAO!) and hates it now that I've been ragging on them so much and have introduced her to better means (plus, the gas thing puts a SERIOUS hole in her pocket... I can, and have, gone for more than a month on the same coin she spends in a week).
This isn't Porsche related in the least... SUV's are a fad - like the big gas guzzlers post WWII (that we all laugh about now). At some point, we as Americans will hit a wall where out economy doesn't support the fad anymore (due to gas prices most likely) and a new trend will begin. Alternative fuel, gas sippers, public transit, teleportation devices or what-have-you. If *YOU* have an SUV and actually use it for more than the vacation week (umm.. rent or borrow?) - then great! We don't need you to speak up - we know you're out there, no.. really. Just take a second, remove the blinders and give a thought to looking at the alternative view.
FWIW, yes - I have complained to my government about SUVs on a few different levels. I've complained about teenage drivers and ****-poor DMV testing. I've used on-vehicle video taping to be used in the court of law to help enforce the laws that are currently out there and hopefully make some sort of an impact (all as a motorcyclist mind you - just trying to increase my chances of survival). I sign EVERY petition to make hand-held phones illegal in cars, etc...
<img src="graemlins/soapbox.gif" border="0" alt="[soapbox]" />
This isn't Porsche related in the least... SUV's are a fad - like the big gas guzzlers post WWII (that we all laugh about now). At some point, we as Americans will hit a wall where out economy doesn't support the fad anymore (due to gas prices most likely) and a new trend will begin. Alternative fuel, gas sippers, public transit, teleportation devices or what-have-you. If *YOU* have an SUV and actually use it for more than the vacation week (umm.. rent or borrow?) - then great! We don't need you to speak up - we know you're out there, no.. really. Just take a second, remove the blinders and give a thought to looking at the alternative view.
FWIW, yes - I have complained to my government about SUVs on a few different levels. I've complained about teenage drivers and ****-poor DMV testing. I've used on-vehicle video taping to be used in the court of law to help enforce the laws that are currently out there and hopefully make some sort of an impact (all as a motorcyclist mind you - just trying to increase my chances of survival). I sign EVERY petition to make hand-held phones illegal in cars, etc...
<img src="graemlins/soapbox.gif" border="0" alt="[soapbox]" />
12-19-2002, 03:21 PM
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Do any of you Porsche driving SUV haters feel just a little bit hypocritical? Our cars don't use as much gas as an SUV but I doubt there is another marque that is driven as much "just for fun". If you calculated "required miles" per gallon I'm not sure our cars would look so good. Ever check your mileage on the track?
If soccer mom's have their head up the a$$es for for choosing an SUV over a station wagon because you have determined that they don't need four wheel drive then where are our heads as we drive around in 2 passenger, 170 mph sportscars.
It seems to me that if we were really concerned about conservation and safety, we would only drive our Honda hybreds to the bus stop on workdays and race our Treks on weekends.
Or, maybe I'm just trying to justify to myself why I need a Tahoe to pull my track car around the mid-west every weekends.
If soccer mom's have their head up the a$$es for for choosing an SUV over a station wagon because you have determined that they don't need four wheel drive then where are our heads as we drive around in 2 passenger, 170 mph sportscars.
It seems to me that if we were really concerned about conservation and safety, we would only drive our Honda hybreds to the bus stop on workdays and race our Treks on weekends.
Or, maybe I'm just trying to justify to myself why I need a Tahoe to pull my track car around the mid-west every weekends.
12-19-2002, 03:35 PM
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Fad or not, SUV's accounted for 52% of new car sales in the US last year. Fad, or market indicator? I guess it's in how you look at it.
As much as we hate it, the SUV is here to stay. Porsche has figured out that they dont all have to be top heavy slugs, or station wagons with lift kits. I like to think of a Cayenne as a descendent of an SUV and a sports car. Porsche It's certainly a twist on an SUV that nobody has tried yet. Everytime I drive an SUV I hate em, but maybe it's because I havent driven one that actually has the right to be called a SPORT utility. What's so sporty about a Yukon,explorer,navigator,rx300,discovery, etc, etc?
Peace
PS
As much as we hate it, the SUV is here to stay. Porsche has figured out that they dont all have to be top heavy slugs, or station wagons with lift kits. I like to think of a Cayenne as a descendent of an SUV and a sports car. Porsche It's certainly a twist on an SUV that nobody has tried yet. Everytime I drive an SUV I hate em, but maybe it's because I havent driven one that actually has the right to be called a SPORT utility. What's so sporty about a Yukon,explorer,navigator,rx300,discovery, etc, etc?
Peace
PS
12-19-2002, 06:19 PM
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I'll never own one. Today it is about status for most of these folks. None ever use the full capability. It has become the biggest joke on the US auto consumer.
12-19-2002, 06:58 PM
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[quote]Originally posted by JimB:
<strong>
If soccer mom's have their head up the a$$es for for choosing an SUV over a station wagon because you have determined that they don't need four wheel drive then where are our heads as we drive around in 2 passenger, 170 mph sportscars.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Soccer Mom's using SUV's is like using Porsche to get groceries and saying... Wow this is the best gorcery getter ever!
Sure there is no practical reason to own a Porsche, but then again there NEVER has been a practical reason to own sports car. They have always been about fun and this has been clear to their owners from the beginning.
Today somebody buys a 4 wheel drive 4000 to 5000 lbs truck SUV designed to haul stuff and traverse terrain that would make most people wet their pants, never veture off road and only haul the kids to soccer practice then wonder "Why doesn't this thing handle more like my car?"
Then auto maker respond by fine.. "Well make a station wagon and put a lift on it to make it LOOK LIKE a rough and tough 4x4. That why they can have their cushy ride and "Look tough" doing it. Of course we will charge them a premium and make tons of money on their stupiditiy."
Of course Porsche being the independant auto company thinkers with so much racing heritage and passion for sport cars says... "Heck we can get into this game too. Most Porsche owners make tons of money and I bet we can sell them a jack-up station wagon. Yeah... heck we can even add Turbo model and they will really buy it! Don't forget adding Big Reds too! Yeah that will do it Porsche owners today are so stupid that they will buy it and make us tons of money! Off-road performance? Heck we will make them pay EXTRA for that! Yeah It will be great. They will be driving their big fat jacked -up station wagons around think "We he we got ourselves a Porsch Honey!" and we will be laughing all the way to the bank... I love the stupid American public.. Three Cheers for Soccer Mom's Hip-Hip Hooray, Hip-Hip Hooray, Hip-Hip Hooray!"
<strong>
If soccer mom's have their head up the a$$es for for choosing an SUV over a station wagon because you have determined that they don't need four wheel drive then where are our heads as we drive around in 2 passenger, 170 mph sportscars.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Soccer Mom's using SUV's is like using Porsche to get groceries and saying... Wow this is the best gorcery getter ever!
Sure there is no practical reason to own a Porsche, but then again there NEVER has been a practical reason to own sports car. They have always been about fun and this has been clear to their owners from the beginning.
Today somebody buys a 4 wheel drive 4000 to 5000 lbs truck SUV designed to haul stuff and traverse terrain that would make most people wet their pants, never veture off road and only haul the kids to soccer practice then wonder "Why doesn't this thing handle more like my car?"
Then auto maker respond by fine.. "Well make a station wagon and put a lift on it to make it LOOK LIKE a rough and tough 4x4. That why they can have their cushy ride and "Look tough" doing it.
Of course we will charge them a premium and make tons of money on their stupiditiy."Of course Porsche being the independant auto company thinkers with so much racing heritage and passion for sport cars says... "Heck we can get into this game too. Most Porsche owners make tons of money and I bet we can sell them a jack-up station wagon. Yeah... heck we can even add Turbo model and they will really buy it! Don't forget adding Big Reds too! Yeah that will do it Porsche owners today are so stupid that they will buy it and make us tons of money! Off-road performance? Heck we will make them pay EXTRA for that! Yeah It will be great. They will be driving their big fat jacked -up station wagons around think "We he we got ourselves a Porsch Honey!" and we will be laughing all the way to the bank... I love the stupid American public.. Three Cheers for Soccer Mom's Hip-Hip Hooray, Hip-Hip Hooray, Hip-Hip Hooray!"
12-19-2002, 08:02 PM
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[quote]Originally posted by JimB:
<strong>Do any of you Porsche driving SUV haters feel just a little bit hypocritical? Our cars don't use as much gas as an SUV but I doubt there is another marque that is driven as much "just for fun". If you calculated "required miles" per gallon I'm not sure our cars would look so good. Ever check your mileage on the track?</strong><hr></blockquote>
Well said, Jim. Self righteous nonsense. My '97 993TT gets 12 mpg on the street - same as my '03 RR. My 993TT track mpg is much worse. I must be as evil as they come.
Did I forget to mention, the end of the world is coming? Guys, everyone needs to lighten up just a bit on this whole SUV thing, not to mention global warming, etc, etc. As Ray would say, "those damn liberals".
Maybe, everyone should be forced to live within 3-5 miles of their workplace? I do, and as a result, I use a hell of a lot less fuel in a year than folks who drive an econobox 20 - 30 miles to work, especially if they sit in traffic jams. MPG is simply not the whole story. (Before anyone freaks out, I do not endorse everyone moving closer to work to save fuel
) Live wherever you want, and drive whatever makes you happy.
Happy Holidays to all.
<strong>Do any of you Porsche driving SUV haters feel just a little bit hypocritical? Our cars don't use as much gas as an SUV but I doubt there is another marque that is driven as much "just for fun". If you calculated "required miles" per gallon I'm not sure our cars would look so good. Ever check your mileage on the track?</strong><hr></blockquote>
Well said, Jim. Self righteous nonsense. My '97 993TT gets 12 mpg on the street - same as my '03 RR. My 993TT track mpg is much worse. I must be as evil as they come.
Did I forget to mention, the end of the world is coming? Guys, everyone needs to lighten up just a bit on this whole SUV thing, not to mention global warming, etc, etc. As Ray would say, "those damn liberals".
Maybe, everyone should be forced to live within 3-5 miles of their workplace? I do, and as a result, I use a hell of a lot less fuel in a year than folks who drive an econobox 20 - 30 miles to work, especially if they sit in traffic jams. MPG is simply not the whole story. (Before anyone freaks out, I do not endorse everyone moving closer to work to save fuel
) Live wherever you want, and drive whatever makes you happy.Happy Holidays to all.
12-19-2002, 08:58 PM
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Up here in the North Country I dont see as many SUV and Pick-up Trucks as I do when I go to Florida for vacations. That doesn't make any sense since we are the one who get all the snow. I would like to say that this is due to the fact that we are more environmental conscious but the main reason is probably the higher price of gas over here. With the recent news that price will probably get higher everywhere and that could mean less SUV on the road. I can live with that.