944 Hooligan

not sure how many here have spent time in europe, but how many suvs have you seen cruising around? not many, by my recollection...it seems as though they have a good grasp on what type of vehicle is used for what.

here's a good example. a past co-worker of mine, in this case an upper 20's single mother of one child, bought a brand new dodge durango. not the largest of suvs, bought not small either. i asked her why. she has ONE child to tote around, participated in no activites that would require a vehicle of this type (camping, boating, off-roading, etc.), has really no need for 4 wheel drive in this part of the country, and she didn't even know the fuel consumption figures!! what was her answer? she has a child and a small dog, it gets better traction in the rain, and she really liked the color.

sheer american consumer "bigger is better" ignorance.

as for the miles-per-gallon problem, i am almost 100% sure that my "not a real" porsche 944 gets mileage comparable to any new car with the same power specs. in fact, i recently made it from wilmington, de to cleveland, oh on one full tank with a hatch full of cargo and a new computer on board.

the cayenne is for america, and it is laughable. kudos to those who use their suvs for the purpose intended.

cmoss

The SUV is a Pop Culture Icon. It will be with us until a different icon replaces it. This will happen soon enough--Pop Culture is both fickle and shallow.

Then everyone will want one of those. They will have a list of reasons asserting the superiority of the new icon, etc., etc., etc.

Cheers,
Chris

Anir

Guys,

Believe it or not, the SUV has been around for quite some time - at least in Texas where I grew up. I can't remember a time when there wasn't a ton of Suburbans (we called them "Cowboy Cadillacs") on our Texas roads. We never viewed them as status symbols. SUV's are workhorses - functional and fun, as well as the ultimate family party road-trip mobile.

The Range Rover alone is over 30 years old now. Pretty long "fad", don't you think?

cmoss

Anir, yes the SUV has been around for ~30 years, but the general public's facination with said vehicles is considerably shorter. And it will wain in time. Then they go back to being the viable work vehicles they were intended to be.

DJF1

I was reading this thread last night before I went to bed. This morning while sipping my coffee and browsing through the 993 board I heard on CNN of the accident in Ft.Lauderdale where a senator was involved in the resque. The "car" was an SUV that rolled over several times when probably one tire separated as per the Highway Patrol spokesman.
Unfortunately a 10 year old girl was killed...
This was a very sad reminded of this thread and the fact that SUV's are dangerous. The get loaded with live cargo which brings the center of gravity even higher and they flip over on a dime... Two years ago a friend of mine in Houston was driving in the rain with her SUV, an idiot infront slammed his brakes, she did an evasive manouver only to flip and cost her two weeks in the Hospital with broken ribs, shoulder and other nice injuries compliments of her SUV.
My wife wanted an SUV, I have done my best so far to get her out of this and bought her one of her favorite cars a BMW M3. I feel much safer knowing she drives this car instead of a behemoth with weak brakes, bad handling etc.

SUV's are dangerous, it happens everyday out there we just don't hear about it. Because of a Senator being involved a tragic reminder of this made it to the news...

Tonight I will include in my prayers that little girl who left our world so early...

Have a good day and keep your families safe.

John from WA

Note that all of the occupants where ejected from the vehicle.

FRIST, A SURGEON, was about 35 miles from Miami and heading to a family vacation home when a sport utility vehicle going in the other direction rolled over, throwing out all six passengers. The senator helped paramedics and several off-duty firefighters stabilize the victims until they were transported to area hospitals after about 30 minutes.

Seatbelts may have helped. It is a shame the 10 year old had to pay the price for the adults not insisting on them.

Anir

John and Danny,

Without knowing all the details of the case, it's difficult to know whether the fact that an SUV was involved had anything to do with the injuries. Certainly, the failure to wear seat belts may have been a much larger factor than the SUV itself.

Before going into dermatology, I spent almost a year in trauma surgery. I witnessed hundreds of serious injuries related to failure to wear seat belts, and also saw numerous examples of rollovers in non-SUV's. I also saw examples of crashes involving SUV's in which the added bulk of the vehicle, or higher position of the occupants (e.g. against an eighteen-wheeler), may have saved someone's life.

My wife grew up in Europe and claims that semi-trucks were forced to use separate highways in some countries. This is probably a good idea. However, in our country, I'm personally amused by the vocal anti-SUV contingent that never mentions the fact that you could clear every SUV off the road and still be faced with legions of eighteen-wheelers sharing the space next to you.

There's too much anti-SUV hysteria out there that's not based in a level-headed review of the data or specific situations. The death rates in solo accidents involving small Japanese subcompacts is pretty dismal, but you never hear people talk about banning subcompacts. I drove a Honda Civic for 11 years, and I'd rather be involved in any type of wreck in our Range Rover than in that paper-thin subcompact.

Difference Engine

SUVs are not dangerous. Owners who drive SUVs like they're cars are dangerous. Even though there are warnings on sun visors and in the owner's manuals and whatnot, people still drive their SUV like it's a sedan. SUVs do not handle or perform like a sedan. People are generally too dumb to figure this out. Especially in America, where people drive with the coffee and the phone and the newspaper, all at the same time. If people would wise up, they would realize that SUVs are no more dangerous than any other type of vehicle on the road.

I'm proud to be part of the 25% that uses their SUV for what it was intended. I tow a trailer. I haul the dogs around. I take it offroad, and go camping in places where four wheel drive is a necessity.

And with books like that, there are always going to be figures quoted to back up their claims. "SUVs are dangerous!" And they find some figures to back that up. Well anyone can make up figures and numbers. 70% of all people know that.

DJF1

My personal belief is that you have to be able to avoid the accident. Once you get involved in one the concequences can be catastrophic in any event. I have avoided thank God numerous accidents on evasive manouvers because people are careless and untrained. I do not speed on public roads at home not because speed kills but I'm aware of my surroundings. The only places I felt very comfortable driving fast was France and Germany. Especially in Germany the drivers are very educated, disiplined and you can see it driving on the Autobahn. I have driven SUV's on several occassions, one time I was in need to drive to LA and Miami from Houston to get some bulky things and I borrowed my friends Suburban. When the SUV was loaded it was a horrible experience even my wife made the comment that she did not really feel safe traveling in this car.
Last August a friend of mine wanted to go to Austin with his wife and son to check out the dorms at UT as his son was to attend the school for the first time. We thought we make a weekend out of that trip so my friend suggested to rent an SUV so all 6 of us would go together. We rented a Lincoln Navigator from Hertz, brand new with 600 miles on. This was one scary ride! Loaded with 6 people and baggage this school bus had no brakes, no handling, it was down right scary driving it at 65mph on the freeway. I drove all the way and back and every minute of the ride I wished we had gone in separate cars...
In short the bad memories from the Suburban experience a few years ago came back in a second of driving this thing. I just don't buy it that an SUV will be safer for me. I firmly believe that I'm much better off being able to avoid an accident than having to be in one...

In all fairness to the Caynene and probably the Range Rover that Anir is raving about I have not driven them and maybe they do offer handling and brakes which are my priority when driving. As a matter of fact my wife begs me to go drive that new Cayenne... <img src="graemlins/icon107.gif" border="0" alt="[icon107]" />

This afternoon a friend to came to our ship and brought us some new brochures he got from a dealer knowing I'm a Porsche fan and my wife grabbed the Cayenne one! She likes that monster and she throws the argument in my face about how much i rave about Porsche and handling blah blah blah <img src="graemlins/crying.gif" border="0" alt="[crying]" />
So what do you know...maybe I will convert ( not likely) or at least warm up to the P-Fish by necessity <img src="graemlins/crying.gif" border="0" alt="[crying]" />
Damn you Porsche! <img src="graemlins/cussing.gif" border="0" alt="[grrrrrrr]" />

Do you think they had in mind the wifes of Porsche owners when they decided to built an SUV?

Be safe whatever you drive out there...
<img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" />

DWNSHFT

After the minivan craze, the backlash against minivans was mostly directed at the image. Many women still say they wouldn't be caught dead in a station wagon, all because of image. So everyone bought an SUV. Think about it. We are happy to pay $300 for a pair of Gore-Tex hiking boots and another $300 for a North Face Gore-Tex expedition parka just to go shopping at the mall. Are SUVs any different? We have $4,000 Aga commercial-grade ovens, $3,000 commercial-grade refrigerators, and all of our power tools must be contractor-grade. Overkill for an information society living in the suburbs but we line up to do it.

I drive a rusty 1988 Suburban and maintain it myself (240,000 miles). I tow the race car, haul the dog, and go camping, rock climbing and off-roading in it even though it's only 2WD. I don't like driving it, but I need one.

I don't blame car companies for making them; they are just giving the consumer what they want. I blame consumers for paying extra for something they will never use just for the image. I ABSOLUTELY blame the car companies for getting loophole exemptions from safety and emissions legislation for SUVs and light trucks. That is EVIL (in the biblical sense). It is criminal to argue that SUVs and light trucks shouldn't have to meet the same requirements as cars.

The PT Cruiser is the natural and perfect extension of this fallacy. While it borrows heavily from the Neon parts bin, Chrysler specifically designed it to qualify as an SUV. That's right, the PT Cruiser is an SUV and doesn't have the same safety and emissions equipment as the Neon it is based on. This is unforgivable hypocrisy.

Anir

[quote]Originally posted by DWNSHFT:
<strong>Think about it. We are happy to pay $300 for a pair of Gore-Tex hiking boots and another $300 for a North Face Gore-Tex expedition parka just to go shopping at the mall. Are SUVs any different? We have $4,000 Aga commercial-grade ovens, $3,000 commercial-grade refrigerators, and all of our power tools must be contractor-grade. Overkill for an information society living in the suburbs but we line up to do it.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Very insightful post. I definitely tend to go for overengineered products.

Danny,

I attended UT from 1985 - 1990. Of course, you're ultimately correct that many SUV's don't handle as well in an avoidance maneuver as a traditional car with a lower COG. But, my beef is that SUV's seem to be constantly singled out. What about the old jalopies on shot suspensions, or cars without proper brakes, or small econoboxes with inadequate crash protection, or people who drive on summer tires in the snow, etc, etc.

To me, it's simply hypocritical to levy so much attention and furor at one type of vehicle. Ultimately, a car is as safe as its driver. A large sedan with a mindless driver on a cellphone, or a minivan with el cheapo tires, can be more dangerous than any SUV. Plus, as you alluded to, all SUV's are not created equal.

Difference Engine

[quote]Originally posted by Anir:
<strong>

But, my beef is that SUV's seem to be constantly singled out. What about the old jalopies on shot suspensions, or cars without proper brakes, or small econoboxes with inadequate crash protection, or people who drive on summer tires in the snow, etc, etc.

To me, it's simply hypocritical to levy so much attention and furor at one type of vehicle. </strong><hr></blockquote>

Exactly. Around here, there are just as many people using full size four door pickups as there are SUVs, and no one says boo about their safety.

Serge914

The problem with the SUV or big pickups is like with the Pit Bull dogs: The owners. They buy them because it give them a sense of power and they feel more secure with it. They drive more agressively, tailgate those inferiors peoples in their econoboxes, or decides to stop in the middle of the street. Put that same person in a regular car and he will transform himself in a much safer driver, will probably even put back his seatbelt.

I almost buy a SUV because I need to pull a folding trailer but thanks God i finally bought a station.

Anir

[quote]Originally posted by Serge914:
<strong>The problem with the SUV or big pickups is like with the Pit Bull dogs: The owners. They buy them because it give them a sense of power and they feel more secure with it. They drive more agressively, tailgate those inferiors peoples in their econoboxes, or decides to stop in the middle of the street. Put that same person in a regular car and he will transform himself in a much safer driver, will probably even put back his seatbelt.

I almost buy a SUV because I need to pull a folding trailer but thanks God i finally bought a station.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Thank goodness, or the world may have been one step closer to Armageddon.

What a bunch of nonsense. I drove like a maniac when I was 20 years old in a Honda Civic with 59 hp. You are making sweeping generalizations, and we all know how accurate those tend to be. There are just as many tailgaters and crummy drivers in muscle cars, minivans, station wagons, econoboxes, etc. Perhaps, you notice them less because they don't fill up the rear view mirror quite as much. I've been rear-ended twice while sitting quietly at a stoplight - both times by an inattentive driver in a station wagon. However, that does not make all station wagons bad.

In a similar vein, all kinds of "soccer mom" vehicles stop in the middle of the street (unfortunately). Perhaps, it's just more difficult to get around the larger ones.

mpm '95 C4

[quote]Originally posted by Serge914:
<strong>The problem with the SUV or big pickups is like with the Pit Bull dogs: The owners. </strong><hr></blockquote>
Hey don't go picking on pit bull owners. We have two (mixes) and they are the sweetest dogs of the 15 I've had in life.

[quote]Originally posted by Anir:
<strong> I drove like a maniac when I was 20 years old in a Honda Civic with 59 hp. </strong><hr></blockquote>

It was a 90hp '83 GTI for me